Tiger's Two-Stroke Penalty at 2013 BMW Championship?

[mmoan2]

I don't think any sport should be officiated by anyone who isn't part of the game - whether it be a hired official, or a player (and I think even this can be solved). In this day and age, the PGA Tour can figure out some way to have every shot played in a tournament either viewed by a hired official with their own eyes, or in some kind of "control room" where every shot played has a camera on it. There's only two-four people playing any given hole at a time. You could literally have a cameraman following every player in every tournament from the first tee to the last green and hire a bunch of rules officials sitting in a control room watching every shot. If a player has officially signed a card after a round, it ends there. I just think there's something innately silly about allowing someone watching a game on TV, who may even be on a different continent, be allowed to call out a player several hours after, or even the day after. There's got to be a better system than that.

Golf has always had a genteelness associated with it - its players are expected to be moral paradigms and admit every rules infraction, where my high school football coach used to actually encourage us to gouge people's eyes out in a pile to get a fumble (not quite, but you know what I mean). I respect that. I think it's silly to expect players to police themselves as well, though. With millions of dollars on the line and the chance to be known for the rest of sporting history, don't tell me some golfers wouldn't cheat if they thought the rule they were breaking wasn't inherently stupid and they could get away with it to win the Open or the Masters. I drive 40 mph on 35 mph streets every day like everyone else on the road. I'm not going to find a cop and admit that and ask for a speeding ticket.

Also, every sporting event in history has had some penalty call missed. A strike call screwed up. A missed charging foul. A missed holding penalty. A missed high sticking call. Etc. Even instant replay screws it up IMO sometimes. Some might say "well that's the reason we should allow TV viewers to get involved in golf." I think that just means we should make it easier on professional officials and leave the outside world away from it, then live with the best system we have and admit mistakes are part of life. Golf is a game. A game is a discreet phenomenon, apart from the rest of the world. And as for the argument that letting people call infractions in will promote participation and interest, puh-leeze. There's like 50 better ways to do that without letting some guy in a tank top watching a golf ball move 1/8 of an inch on his TV while guzzling beer in Yakima, WA determine who wins the Masters. It doesn't pass the common sense test to me.

[jamo]

I don't think any sport should be officiated by anyone who isn't part of the game - whether it be a hired official, or a player (and I think even this can be solved). In this day and age, the PGA Tour can figure out some way to have every shot played in a tournament either viewed by a hired official with their own eyes, or in some kind of "control room" where every shot played has a camera on it. There's only two-four people playing any given hole at a time. You could literally have a cameraman following every player in every tournament from the first tee to the last green and hire a bunch of rules officials sitting in a control room watching every shot. If a player has officially signed a card after a round, it ends there. I just think there's something innately silly about allowing someone watching a game on TV, who may even be on a different continent, be allowed to call out a player several hours after, or even the day after. There's got to be a better system than that.

How is that control room idea going to be any different than the policy that is in place currently? Someone's going to break a rule, it'll be noticed within ... an hour/minute/day/whatever, and it'll be corrected. Just because the person who noticed the infraction isn't on premises or isn't an official, if a rule is broken why does it matter who noticed it?

[mmoan2]

How is that control room idea going to be any different than the policy that is in place currently? Someone's going to break a rule, it'll be noticed within ... an hour/minute/day/whatever, and it'll be corrected.

Just because the person who noticed the infraction isn't on premises or isn't an official, if a rule is broken why does it matter who noticed it?

I was trying to make the point that all other sports I can think of don't allow outside folks to get involved because it's understood that the game is the game and the fans are the fans, and they are separate entities. Golf has enjoyed an original position because it's self-officiated, and with TV and other media coverage becoming so rampant, it's turned into what we have now.I think this whole fans calling in after-the-fact just makes it silly, though. If you can develop a system where actual professional officials can referee a golf tournament without needing outside help, leave the fans out of it. If you don't, then all of the metaphors and what-ifs like "What if someone called in 2 hours after the Lakers won the NBA Championship by 1 point and revealed that Kobe Bryant actually traveled at the 4 minute mark in Quarter 2" or "What if Peyton Manning throws a game-winning touchdown, but someone calls in later that day and shows how the right guard committed a tripping penalty" are actually valid. I almost want to say to someone who calls in from home that Tiger Woods' ball rotated 1/4 inch "GET A LIFE." Just watch the damn event and enjoy it.

Like I also said, no officiating system will ever be 100% foolproof anyway. That's just life, though. If I could go back in time and get back every borderline strike call I didn't get from the ump to go in my favor, I may have been drafted by the Yankees.

Also, I don't like penalties called retroactively. Golf is a little different than other timed sports played in small areas, but I think if a player has signed an official card for a day and no one has caught an error yet (given that there is a pretty robust officiating system in place, which I think we agree doesn;t exist right now), I think everyone should give it up and go home. How crazy would it be if after every NFL game, a bunch of guys sat down and reviewed the film, and decided to overturn the score because they noticed a big pass interference call missed, or a crackback block, etc. Then add in the possibility that fans could call in to alert them. I'm all for getting the calls right, but at some point, c'mon.

[mmoan2]

BTW, without getting too off-topic, is there a statute-of-limitations rule for calling in golf infractions you spot? If I watch a rerun of the 2013 Bay Hill Invitational and notice that while Tiger was walking across a green, his ball moved 1/8 of an inch but no one saw it, can I get his score dropped by 2 strokes? More importantly, will I get an official USGA cookie and a pat on the head for calling it in?

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmoan2

BTW, without getting too off-topic, is there a statute-of-limitations rule for calling in golf infractions you spot? If I watch a rerun of the 2013 Bay Hill Invitational and notice that while Tiger was walking across a green, his ball moved 1/8 of an inch but no one saw it, can I get his score dropped by 2 strokes? More importantly, will I get an official USGA cookie and a pat on the head for calling it in?

Only few cases can affect the outcome of a competition which has been closed. Here are the parts from rules that should indicate that above mentioned scenario would not affect the scores, unless Tiger knew his ball had moved 1/8 of an inch.

Quote:

Rule 34-1

b. Stroke Play
In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

Exceptions: A penalty of disqualification must be imposed after the competition has closed if a competitor:

(iii) returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred;

[iacas]

I love how you think a cameraman following every player and a room full of 100 officials preserves golf's "genteelness."

[mmoan2]

I love how you think a cameraman following every player and a room full of 100 officials preserves golf's "genteelness."

I'd love for you to demonstrate for me how what I said validates your deficient translation of my statement. I said golf is genteel. I didn't say cameras would preserve that. If all human beings were morally infallible and completely logical, we'd need no referees, officials (except to translate and remind of rules), or cops. Last time I checked, I don't recall hearing "NOW, on the first tee. From the Planet Vulcan. SPOCK!" any time in the past.

Ok, now I've lost my gentility and wasted 30 more minutes yelling into cyberspace. Until later on another topic.

[iacas]

I'd love for you to demonstrate for me how what I said validates your deficient translation of my statement. I said golf is genteel. I didn't say cameras would preserve that. If all human beings were morally infallible and completely logical, we'd need no referees, officials (except to translate and remind of rules), or cops. Last time I checked, I don't recall hearing "NOW, on the first tee. From the Planet Vulcan. SPOCK!" any time in the past.

Ok, now I've lost my gentility and wasted 30 more minutes yelling into cyberspace. Until later on another topic.

I read your post on your phone and skimmed it more than I perhaps should have. I took your point about "genteelness" as a good thing and thus one you'd likely want to preserve.

I'll take by this response that you did not mean it that way, and apologize for misreading it.