Tiger's Two-Stroke Penalty at 2013 BMW Championship?

[paddlefoot]

I watched the replay several times on you tube.  The ball looked like it oscillated to me.  It did move and the PGA guys keep saying that it moved, but moving is a result of oscillation.  The ball didn't look like it changed positions to me.

I'm not a big Tiger fan, but I think he's got a decent argument.

Just wondering what everyone else thinks about it.

[Beachcomber]

Edit: I just watched the video that the Golf Channel has on their site. It moved. BUT... There comes a time when the PGA needs to tell these 'Internet Nerds' to back off. I can't believe that they are going to continue to encourage outside agencies like this to possibly influence the outcome of a round of golf. It is pathetic. Especially when it is clearly not improving his lie, or benefiting the intended stroke. And it brings the players integrity into question which is lame.

[rkim291968]

Whether it happened to Tiger or someone in Web.com tour, the rule is stupid.   The ball moved but it didn't change the outcome of the play.  But it's a two stroke penalty anyway.   There are a lot of golf rules like this that is outdated.  In basketball, it's like deducting 10 points b/c a guy shoots a free throw while stepping on a line.   Or, as in soccer, for the first occurrence, give the player a warning.  2nd time it happens, give him a stroke penalty.   Two stroke penalty?  It's a stupid rule and it has to change (and I think it will).

[Zeph]

The penalty is correct and Tiger should know better than trying to move twigs lying that close to the ball. The ball clearly moves vertically.

BALL AT REST MOVED: GENERAL

18/1

Ball Moves Vertically Downwards

Q. A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downwards. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

A. Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

http://www.usga.org/rule-books/rules-of-golf/decision-18/

[luu5]

Whether it happened to Tiger or someone in Web.com tour, the rule is stupid.   The ball moved but it didn't change the outcome of the play.  But it's a two stroke penalty anyway.   There are a lot of golf rules like this that is outdated.  In basketball, it's like deducting 10 points b/c a guy shoots a free throw while stepping on a line.   Or, as in soccer, for the first occurrence, give the player a warning.  2nd time it happens, give him a stroke penalty.   Two stroke penalty?  It's a stupid rule and it has to change (and I think it will).

He would got one stroke penalty had he replaced the ball, but he did not do that and got two strokes. Nothing stupid about it. He tried to get advantage by removing the twig and while doing that the ball moved, outcome has nothing to do about the penalty. Did Tiger know it moved or did he believe it just oscillated, no-one else knows.

[Lihu]

I guess it's not a good thing to bring up Bobby Jones, where he was the only one to see his ball move and called a penalty on himself?

[Wally]

In my eyes, the ball clearly moved. Rules are rules. "The ball was here, and it moved to here." Anyone get the reference?

[Lihu]

In my eyes, the ball clearly moved. Rules are rules. "The ball was here, and it moved to here." Anyone get the reference?

[luu5]

I guess it's not a good thing to bring up Bobby Jones, where he was the only one to see his ball move and called a penalty on himself?

Inbee Park at Evian yesterday. The ball did not move on TV but she saw it move. Penalty and replace.

Back to Tiger. You do not know what he saw and how he saw it, so Bobby Jones is not relevant.

[krupa]

The ball definitely moved but you couldn't see it without a high-definition, slow motion replay... the penalty was the wrong call, in my opinion.

Having said that, it looked like Tiger was playing Operation trying to clear stuff around the ball; when you have to be that precise to prevent moving the ball, you should probably just accept your lie as it is.

As Beachcomber said, the PGA needs to stop taking these calls.  If there's so much concern about getting the rules right, they should have Rule Officials with each group and they should have the final say.   Some independent videographer who noticed something and told his boss who told the PGA is just not the way to handle these situations, in my opinion.

[rustyredcab]

Ball moved and should have been a penalty.

I don't think Tiger thought it moved. I do not think he was thinking he'd get away with cheating. If he thought it had moved, he'd have taken the one stroke and not risked his integrity and an additional stroke. I think is he is aware that every move he makes is being watched.

At what point do outside pictures and videos reviewed after a round stop influencing the game? IMO, there is tremendous inconsistency here when some pros have every move on video and others don't and all the video is used to check for correct rules and scoring. YET, a player must keep track of his own score and sign his scorecard even though officials are watching every shot. No pro would ever get away with posting a lower-than-shot score without everyone noticing. You think Jim F. could have posted a 58 without anyone noticing his error? So why make them track their own scores? When do we get officials following every pro and making determinations in real time?  Lord knows the tour can afford it. And, this every-shot scrutiny seems to be happening with some players now. But it is fans instead of officials capturing every move and then delayed calls to the PGA to determine penalties. In high school tennis, you call your own line calls. By the time you get to the pros, lines-people and even net sensors make the calls -- not the players. Why do pro golfers have to call their own "lines?"

I love the concept that I call my own penalties when I do something wrong. That is part of the beauty of the game. Much as playing tennis requires both players to make fair line calls. But, when I play golf, if I do not think a ball moved, it didn't move. It is my call. But, I am not playing on the PGA tour.

[rkim291968]

He would got one stroke penalty had he replaced the ball, but he did not do that and got two strokes. Nothing stupid about it. He tried to get advantage by removing the twig and while doing that the ball moved, outcome has nothing to do about the penalty. Did Tiger know it moved or did he believe it just oscillated, no-one else knows.

My post is all about crime not fitting the punishment.  The rule needs to be modified.  If you hit a ball into water hazard, it's one stroke penalty.  Two stroke penalty for a moving ball?

[JCRuzanski]

I think it's crap. These call in penalties are crap. Notice how many more penalties are assessed to Tiger... nobody is scrutinizing every other player... again, it's crap.

[TourSpoon]

The call in penalties after the fact are getting real old. Regardless of who it happens to, it is out of hand.

[paddlefoot]

In my eyes, the ball clearly moved. Rules are rules. "The ball was here, and it moved to here." Anyone get the reference?

I'm just being devil's advocate here...

If you look at the replay/video, yes the ball does move.  But if you look at the very top of the ball, it doesn't look like the ball actually moves up/down or changes position.  It looks like his ball mark moved...  That would be oscillation, correct?

[rkim291968]

The call in penalties after the fact are getting real old. Regardless of who it happens to, it is out of hand.

And that, too.   It's like calling a penalty in soccer after game is over.

[David in FL]

My post is all about crime not fitting the punishment.  The rule needs to be modified.  If you hit a ball into water hazard, it's one stroke penalty.  Two stroke penalty for a moving ball?

No. A one stroke penalty for moving his golf ball. Another for playing the next shot from the wrong spot (not replacing the ball after it had moved). To answer the OP...there's nothing to agree or not agree with. The ball moved. It was not replaced. That is all.....

[MEfree]

The penalty is correct and Tiger should know better than trying to move twigs lying that close to the ball. The ball clearly moves vertically.

BALL AT REST MOVED: GENERAL

18/1

Ball Moves Vertically Downwards

Q. A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downwards. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

A. Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

I basically agree with you, but how do you replace a ball that has moved downward in the grass?  i.e.  Suppose you are sitting up in bermuda rough and the ball sinks down when you address it.  You call the penalty on yourself and seek to replace the ball to avoid a 2 shot penalty but can't seem to get the ball to stay at the higher elevation on the grass.  What then?

I... (... think Tiger knew it moved) but it is a pretty close call.  In this case, I think the ball rolled a mm closer to him, but what would be the call if the ball rotated on its own axis and did not change positions on the golf course?

I also agree with Erik about where you draw the line with what movement is enough to constitute a penalty (and about the point of why Tiger MAY have stopped moving the stick).  I suppose you could have a rule that exempts inadvertent movement of less than a ball, but then you might have an argument about whether someone's ball moved more or less than a ball and this is harder to see with the eye than movement or no movement.

Would it be considered an oscillation if Tiger had immediately pushed back the stick to the original position in the same movement he was trying to remove the stick and the ball (and logo) had returned to their original position?

Also, if returning the stick to the original position did not return the ball to the original position, how would Tiger have gone about replacing the ball to the exact position to get a 1 shot penalty instead of a 2 shotter?  If 1 mm of movement is enough to constitute a penalty, is being off by 1 mm on replacing the ball enough to constitute failing to replace the ball even if you make an effort to do so?