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Posted

Hi,

I'm new to TST and this summer have been bitten by the elusive golf bug.  I've been playing the public courses

around here and now thinking about taking the plunge and joining a club. Wondered if anyone in this area

knows which clubs are looking for members and have attractive deals (ie. lowered dues, no initiation, etc.).

Thanks


  • 5 months later...
Posted

The best deal in Westchester is Lake Isle in Eastchester. If you aren't a resident of Eastchester or Tuckahoe you pay the non-resident rate of around $2500 for weekday play or $3400 for 7-day pass for the year, but that gives you unlimited play. The course is walkable (in fact I have never used a cart there). After 3PM there is no fee, but you do pay a small walking fee ($7 or so) before 3PM.

The course is in great shape after a new grounds crew was hired a few years ago. It is a short course at only 6000 yards, but very nice and one of the best deals around.

If you are looking for a higher end private club then places like Westchester Hills in White Plains offers no initiation and will cost around $15,000/yr including the food/pro-shop minimums. you still have caddy fees, tips, etc. Overall a good deal since alot of clubs are still charging some sort of initiation fee.

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


Posted

Post any details you get from places you look including approx costs. I think alot of us are curious how different places compare, and getting actual rates can be difficult without jumping though hoops.

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


Posted

St. Andrews is supposed to be great and one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) courses in the U.S.. I have not played that yet.

Depending on where you are located also look at Metropolis, Elmwood (although they have some wierd powerline issues with their course) and Knollwood.

Paramount across the bridge in Rockland is supposed to be nice and a good deal for a full service country club as well but it is across the bridge so that in itself is a major turnoff to me.

The county courses are pretty nice -- as long as you like playing 5 hour rounds or getting up at 5AM to play on Saturdays...LOL

good luck

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


Posted

Do you mean that you and some people you know might be interested in joining a club if reasonable?

Sometimes, clubs will cut deals if a group of people agree to join.


Posted

As I mentioned I am a member at Lake Isle, so not looking at switching right now. However, I am always curious as to the deals out there since the economy turned a few years ago. What used to be tens of thousands in initiation fees has dropped dramatically. So one day I might look to upgrade. Also, there are other threads where people have discussed the costs of private clubs. Given the extreme differences in costs throughout the U.S. it is good to see local costs here that tend to be much higher than say Ohio, North Dakota, etc.

My biggest issue with paying for a private club is they charge you for everything including food minimums all year. Even though the pool is open for only 3 months and golf is shut down for the winter. Some clubs close altogether for January and February. So it is hard to justify the expense when my wife and kids don't play golf or tennis and would use the pool for a few times a year. I would play golf, but it'll work out to $200+ a round with all the caddy fees, tips, food minimums and monthly dues. Not to mention the assessments.

Alot of people get stuck in a membership because the club doesn't let you leave until a replacement has been found. Make sure you know the exit policy.

Let us know what you end up doing.

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


Posted

Thanks. I'm familiar with all the extra charges at the clubs.  How are the wait times at Lake Isle?  Rounds fast or slow?  Tough to get a tee time on weekends?

My understanding is that for non-residents it's not so easy.


Posted

I have a weekday-only membership for Lake Isle since I don't get much chance to play weekends.. My friend plays on weekends also. I almost never make a tee time. Depending on the weather and time you can usually get right on or wait 10 minutes and get on with a threesome. Weekends gets busier but terrible. We walk the course and normally play right around 4 hours on a weekday. Rarely are we stuck behind someone, but it does happen on beautiful Friday afternoons.

Members are members no matter whether you are a resident or not. Non resident memberships cost more but are still the least expensive memberships around.

With all that said, it is a semi-private municipal-owned course. It is better than the county courses but isn't a private country club either. There are some quirks. The sand traps need re-doing. the sand is full of stones and hard as a rock. The course has some very picturesque areas but does wrap around the back of a shopping center on a few holes. Very little water comes into play. Just a few streams and some water on 17. I wasn't a huge fan of the course a few years ago, but after playing a few seasons there have really grown to appreciate it. It's a short course but that makes it quick to walk. It used to be a private club until the town took it over in the 70's. It was designed by Devereux Emmet, so a real classic course. plays around 6000 yards. Private clubs have fresh fruit, bottled water and snacks scattered on the course..Lake Isle has some water fountains..bu they are cold..:). They do have temporary holes set-up for the winter so on clear days you can go out and play a few holes. That's nice for a municipal.

You can also play there on Golf Now without a membership, so that can be a way to try it out. Actually is pretty cheap to play that way (cheaper than a membership if you play less than 30 times I think), but of course you give up the ability to hop on after work and hit a few holes if you want.

In fact the golfnow people with the carts hold you up more than the regular members do...lol

If you have a family or are looking for other amenities, Lake Isle also has a huge pool facility and tennis. For everything for the whole family it costs around $4800/yr...no caddies, no tips, no food minimums. There is a nice locker room and bag storage if you want for a slight fee. there isn't really a restaurant or bar (other than the pool concession that doubles as "The Turn" at hole 10) so no 19th hole...:(

You can go onto their web site for more info and download the non-resident application which has all prices on it. http://www.lakeislecountryclub.com. Official opening day is supposed to be April 1st, but that depends on the conditions. With all the snow there are still some shaded areas snow covered.

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


Posted

I have a couple buddies who love Hollow Brook in Cortlandt Manor.

Pretty straightforward pricing, and all about golf.

Im considering a new member try-out deal there through April and May.

Ive only played on member guest days, so that was crowded.


Posted

Never played there but heard it's pretty nice. Price is right for a private club. The issue for me is that I am around White Plains and traveling up to Cortlandt Manor is a hike for me when I want to run out and play few holes or a quick round during the day and get back to work.

If I were up north more it's a good option though. Enjoy!

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


Posted

Yes, I know about Hollow.  I have friends there as well.  But it's a bit too far north for me.

Thanks for the suggestion.


  • 5 weeks later...
Posted

Update on lake Isle. The people who own Mulino's took over all food service, catering, etc. They have an expanded concession stand by the pool/10th hole. they are adding a call ahead food ordering system by the 9th hole and a concession cart to drive around (cart girls!). Honestly, this is something that was lacking.

Something else they are planning on is beer and wine, which along with the nice patio area around the golf clubhouse/pro shop, would allow for at least a sit-down after round drink. Not quite a real full service bar, but a huge jump forward. :beer:

I am a bit concerned on their pricing though. I got a small (i repeat, small!) milky way candy bar at the turn and they charged me $2. What are they going to charge for lunch?!!!!

They have a full catering/restaurant facility here on the other side of the parking lot. Curious to see if they try to expand the food and bar service for the membership. Right now it is mainly a catering hall for weddings, proms, corporate events, etc.

The course is greening up nicely. In a month once we have more warm weather the conditions should be superb.

I thought I would get bored of this course, but they do a great job of moving around the tee box and flag locations to keep things interesting. I'm in my 3rd year playing there (2 as a member) and I still enjoy every round. Sure you start to know where all the trouble spots are and how to hit on certain holes, but it makes working out your kinks much easier. Plus the membership is nice and not all great shot makers. You can play with almost anybody and have a good time without feeling like you are holding them up (or visa versa).

I would love to see them fix some of the sand issues in the bunkers. They look a bit better this year, but some still need new sand and others could use a good sifting out of stones at the minimum. But I guss there is an incentive to stay out of the bunkers.. :whistle:

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


  • 1 month later...
Posted

I just heard that the town of Eastchester voted on funding to redo the bunkers at Lake Isle. So hopefully by this time next year we will see some fluffy sand in those traps. The town also has redone catering/food service and is looking a eventually adding an indoor pool for year round swimming.

Looks like this town has realized that if you invest money into good facilities you can attract more people an and make money.

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


  • 3 months later...
Posted

A friend joined Elmwood this spring and loves it. He joined just for a place to play golf by himself, but has found a great group of guys and his wife now started taking lessons.

He also plays tennis there - they have a bubble so you can play all winter - and he told me they are putting in a golf simulator, so you can play all golf winter.

Membership is more than Lake Isle starts at about $16k, but you get a lot more. They just redid the bunkers, are redoing the tennis courts and committed to a long term plan to upgrade the rest of the course and the club.

But he is complaining about the food - because he gained weight! He goes to the BBQs and other events and just eats too much, because the food is so good.

Hoping for a decent bonus this year, so I can join him


Posted

I've played at Elmwood. It is a very nice course. Some funkiness due to the powerlines that run through the course (and actually come into play a couple times) but well conditoned. The clubhouse and patio are nice also.

I also had the chance to play Westchester Hills and Fenway this year. both very nice, but Fenway may be the finest course I've ever played. Of course whereas joining Westchester Hills or Elmwood will set you back $16k, Fenway is more like $100k initiation likely and $20k/yr. Extremely private with few outings for groups as opposed to other clubs.

I would love to join a private club at some point but as the only golfer in the family (and nobody plays tennis nor wants too) the cost is hard to justify. Perhaps in a few years.

In the bag:

:ping: k15 Driver 10.5

:ping:K15 5 Wood

:ping:G15 irons

:tmade:Ghost Rossa Corza Putter

:ping:4-series stand bag

Grandpa's circa 1960's ball retriever for fishing expeditions.


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  • Posts

    • In the 1970s and 1980s, Dean Knuth, who became known as the "Pope of Slope," created the handicap system as well as the course rating system. He consulted with the USGA through 2002, but hasn't really had a hand in the handicapping since then, and was not involved in the WHS. Suffice to say, he does not like the WHS, and he wrote an article expressing why:  https://www.popeofslope.com/world-handicap-system.html. The problem? His article… well, it's bad. Here is a brief (for me!) exploration of that article. Part 1 includes the bulk of his point, right up until the section labeled "The Par Pitfall," here: The handicapping system has seen almost no changes in the U.S. It's the rest of the world where they've seen the biggest changes. In the U.S., ESC was replaced by NDB, we have soft and hard caps, and we use 8/20 instead of 10/20 at 96%. Those are the only real changes. Dean will spend most of the rest of the time talking about par, but — and this cannot be stressed enough — the par is irrelevant. Its role in determining your playing or course handicap does three things only: It makes the score you have to shoot to "play to your handicap" make a lot more sense. It "bakes in" the changes players should have made but rarely did when playing from different tees. Through NDB, it defines the holes on which you can take a triple (or which you can take a gross bogey if you're on the + side of scratch). The calculation of your differential at the end is completely unaffected and does not involve par. Dean will spend a good amount of the time in this article talking about how par is "less precise" than the rating and slope, but he seems to miss the two points here: Par is an integer. If it helps him to think of it as 72.000000 or something, by all means, Dean… Par is used only to adjust another whole number: the strokes a player gets on the course. We don't give 10.4 strokes — a 10.4 index player might get 13, 10, 8, or whatever number of whole-number strokes.   The problem with this type of statement is that the "par handicap" could be "7" or "13" or "88" and except for affecting NDB, players competing against each other would have the same difference (except they'd still need to adjust for playing from different tees). Let's say a 10.4 and a 14.7 are playing a 71.5/127 course. Par is 72. (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 11.2 -> 11 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 16.0 -> 16 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes Instead of 72, plug in 23 because it's your favorite number: (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 60.2 -> 60 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 65.0 -> 65 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes They still get the strokes they deserve (5), but we've lost the meaning as players now get 60 strokes off a 10 handicap. Remove the course rating and… you're back at the same problem as we've had where players weren't doing the calculation properly, and we lose the first benefit of "playing to your handicap". An example of that, with a 12.3 index player playing on a 68.7/123 rated par 72 course. Properly: (12.3 * 123/113) + 68.7 - 72 = 10.1 -> 10 strokes Improperly: 12.3 * 123/113 = 13.4 -> 13 strokes If the player plays a "net even par" round of golf, he'll shoot 82 and 85. Here's why this makes sense: WHS: (82 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 12.2 differential Prior: (85 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 14.97 -> 15.0 differential The player "played to his handicap" with a net even par round in shooting the 82, which aligns with getting ten strokes, not 13. This makes WAY more sense and is in fact an IMPROVEMENT over the current system for two of the three reasons listed above: It more closely aligns the index and the score you have to shoot to "shoot your handicap" It bakes in players playing from different tees.   Par is not a factor in determining the differential in the WHS system, only the playing handicap. The only way it affects the differential is that it can award a triple bogey on a few more holes (or a gross bogey max to a few + handicappers playing shorter tees) in determining NDB. You can completely ignore the WHS system of calculating your playing handicap and your differentials — the calculation of which does not use par - is going to be almost exactly the same (again, differing only when you tripled a hole on which you wouldn't have gotten NDB but now do because you didn't do the subtraction part of the WHS course/playing handicap calculation). Or maybe it was because of the other three reasons listed above. Which were the reasons given to me back in 2017 and 2018 when I talked with some of the people responsible for helping to create the WHS. If the ease of adoption by other countries and regions, then that's a fourth reason. But, I didn't really hear much about it prior to the WHS being instituted. A similar step was also required when players played from different tees, yet this was frequently forgotten. Players used to playing the blue tees would move up to the whites and expect to keep their 13 strokes, and be dismayed and sometimes even angered and argumentative that they would only get 10. This literally makes no sense. There's no more or less rounding than in previous versions. The output of "HI * Slope/113" typically produced a decimal number, the output of "HI * Slope/113 + CR - Par" also produces a decimal number, and the output of "Score * 113/Slope" (which is unchanged) also produces a decimal number. Each are rounded just as they were before. No, Dean is way off base here. Even if you accept that "par is an approximation" (of course difficulty), it's not used as he suggests. A player playing a par-72 that's rated 75 will get more COURSE handicap strokes than a player playing a par-72 that's rated 67, but that makes sense. At the end of the round, their score is processed using the same old formula to get their differential as always. This is about where I start to wonder and worry about Dean's mental faculties at his nearly 80 years of age. It hasn't "gone away" - it's been built-in as he says, and I think it's fairly obvious that this is true. No it is not. It is what I've said above, which is what the USGA and R&A have said it is. I agree that the course rating is the "most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer" (I mean, it's almost exactly the defeinition), and slope determines the relative difficulty between two levels of player. So, which of these formulas incorporates BOTH the CR and the Slope in determining a player's course handicap: a. (HI * Slope/113) + CR - Par b. (HI * Slope/113) Clearly A incorporates "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty" (as well as the measure of the relative difficulty). Dean's favored formula did NOT include "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer". A scratch golfer under Dean's preferred method could shoot an even par round of 72 and see a differential that ranged from +2.7 (75.4/140) to 5.5 (66.3/118) or something. Under the WHS, if they shoot net par, they're going to end up with about a 0.0 differential. No. Again, you could subtract any integer from the Course Rating (which again the WHS ADDS to the calculation in course/playing handicap that the older system did not) and get the same relative course handicaps for all players. Using par just helps it make the most sense to actual golfers. It's an integer… as are the scores we shoot and the pars of the holes we play. The addition of the "CR - Par" has almost no effect on a player's differential. Again, the only affect it would have is when NDB is applied, because there may be a few holes where they'd get a stroke that they do not. And even then, it requires the player to card a triple on that specific hole, and be among their 8 out of 20 counting scores, AND even then if it happens once a round in ALL of the eight rounds, it's about 1 stroke on their index (probably a bit less given that most slopes are > 113). This has nothing to do with "jumping in" and everything to do with the foundational reasons for adding (CR - Par). Dean sees it as "adding par" when he would more accurately see it as adding the Course Rating! Small point of order: this was not shown to be accurate. The 96% applied to all 10 scores almost perfectly offset the dropping of two middle scores. Some players indexes went up a little. Some went down a little. The net change was almost exactly 0. Yes, that's how math works. The change makes MORE sense, again, as a player shooting net par under the WHS has basically "shot their handicap". Shoot below net par and your handicap will likely go down. Shoot above it and it may go up a little (less chance of this than shooting under lowering it, though, of course). So? Half of the players who play a 72.5/72-par course will see their Course Handicap one higher than they had before the system and half will not! Also and again, players who play a course rated 68.7 par-72 will all see their course handicaps drop several strokes. That's just math, and the boundaries of rounding. Dean chose a 0.5 marker, but the same math is true at any level, because the HI already has a decimal, and the Slope/113 multiplier also tends to produce decimals. So, someone who previously had a 10.5 to 10.9 index will still be an 11, while the 10.0s to 10.4s will go up to 11s. But on another course where the decimals work out to 0.3 and 0.2… the same math applies. And on a course where the decimals work out to 0.8… players half of the players will get an "extra" stroke and half will not. This is just rounding. It's always been a part of the WHS. The point at which rounding occurs might move slightly (depending on the course and index in question) for half of the situations, but if you have a 10.0 and an 11.5… or a 10.5 and an 12.0… half of the time the higher handicapper will get the "extra" stroke, and half the time the lower handicapper will get the "extra" stroke. This is just how rounding works. Handicaps in match play are almost entirely unaffected. A 13 playing a 10 might now be a 10 playing a 7, but the difference is still the same size. You're subtracting out a constant (CR - Par) from both players. The (HI * Slope/113) remains the same. This makes no sense and Dean has absolutely failed to provide any basis for this "less accurate" while ignoring that the WHS ADDS the CR to the course handicap calculation. It is easier. Shoot net par and you've "played to your handicap." Yes, and what they say is both accurate and makes sense. The WHS method bakes in the "playing from different tees" and makes it easier to know what it takes to "play to your handicap." Those are my notes right up until "The Par Pitfall." Dean has yet to make a valid point in any of this blog post thus far. When I have the time, and feel like procrastinating a bit more like today, I'll continue with my response to this blog post. I respect what Dean did in creating the original handicap system and the course ratinga system. The course rating system is one of the most elegant solutions to a very complex problem that I have ever seen. Nothing done by the WHS changes that. The course rating system is relatively unchanged, and its application in the WHS is, again, MORE accurate by the inclusion of the Course Rating than the previous system, in addition to the other benefits. Dean deserves (and has been given) much credit for that. But, if this is how he thinks these days, Dean can remain Pope Emeritus but the Cardinals need to elect a new Pope.
    • Wordle 1,810 4/6* ⬛⬛⬛⬛🟦 ⬛🟦⬛⬛⬛ ⬛🟧⬛🟦🟧 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧
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