My Swing (b101)

[dunlucedreams]

hey, still working hard i see!

question for you - if & when you eradicate your tendency to slice do you tend to also hit pulls? if not then ignore me - i see you still swing left and wondered if that is a common 'miss' for you.

i see you follow 'Nosevi's' swing thread in which case do you think the 'pivot taking the hands/arms in' advice he is getting could help you get deeper and less 'hands high/long backswing' in turn making it easier to get weight forward and swing out? (which i know you are trying really hard to do)

that said i know you are taking instruction so feel free to ignore me!

saw this and thought of you........... (in a good way!) ( may not be your swing issue but looked similar in terms of downswing to the left)

as i said feel free to ignore me if the cap doesn't fit!

[b101]

  dunlucedreams said:

hey, still working hard i see!

question for you - if & when you eradicate your tendency to slice do you tend to also hit pulls? if not then ignore me - i see you still swing left and wondered if that is a common 'miss' for you.

i see you follow 'Nosevi's' swing thread in which case do you think the 'pivot taking the hands/arms in' advice he is getting could help you get deeper and less 'hands high/long backswing' in turn making it easier to get weight forward and swing out? (which i know you are trying really hard to do)

that said i know you are taking instruction so feel free to ignore me!

saw this and thought of you........... (in a good way!) ( may not be your swing issue but looked similar in terms of downswing to the left)

as i said feel free to ignore me if the cap doesn't fit!

Thanks dunluce - it's getting there. Surprisingly, I don't hit that many pulls, but when I do, they're pretty vicious. I went through a phase of pulling mid irons a few months ago, but that cleared up pretty quickly, and the worst now is with the driver if I get steep on it and close the face, which results in a low pull. Generally though, I think my hands tend to 'save' the shot a bit, so it's quite rare that I will actually pull the ball, instead, just open the face a bit and it either fades or leaks further right.

Interesting video, and it does kind of relate to my swing. Before starting with Brian, one of the things I'd been told by the guy who custom fit me was to slow my lower body action down, as I was actually driving so far forward early with my lower body that my hands had to go miles left to even hit the ball. Whilst I've solved the lower body bit, I think the hands flying so far out on the downswing is still an issue (although not my priority right now) and I'm sure this is the next thing on Brian's list! As you say, the arm movement on that swing is very similar, and it's interesting that his cure is very different to mine given the different cause - I'm pretty sure mine is actually nothing to do with my legs and everything to do with the rate and direction my arms start the downswing.

Thankfully, the real banana slice I had on return from holiday is completely gone, and the shorter backswing is making a huge improvement. Based on the last range session, I'll have no problem putting that swing 'in play' with the irons immediately, but I've found that it has thrown my timing off a bit with the driver and I really have to try to hit up on the ball to even get a low flight. That's probably my lower body being a bit overactive again, but I'll look at that tomorrow!

Edit: As for Nosevi's thread, one of the main things I've found out about my swing is that I can't teach myself. I did that from the age of 11-17, gave it a break for 10 years, went for a lesson and basically had to start over with re-educating my body on all the fundamentals! I'd like to think I understand my swing on the course enough to know what I need to do with it to get the ball doing what I want, but I'm very wary of picking up any more swing tips that may not be good for me. Perfect case in point was the most recent lesson with Brian, as even with his really clear guidance, I still overdid it and now need to correct that - it'll come, but I know how much I need guidance here :)

[b101]

I did some reading this morning as I can't get out till this afternoon and had a good read through of this thread ( http://thesandtrap.com/t/77144/how-to-draw-the-golf-ball-or-how-to-stop-slicing ) this morning as it's basically what I want to attain and whilst I'm closer to it, I still can't always get the controlled result I want. I thought therefore I'd take some shots of my swing at certain points and compare it to @mvmac 's to see where I am with things. As a teacher, I completely get that I need to see and analyse the same things a number of times before I really understand it, so I'll count this as another one. Plus, it's interesting to see what I actually look like at certain points compared to what I think I look like. I know I cut across the ball still, so it's always worth revisiting.

N.B. this isn't necessarily to change what I practise, as I want to stick with my priority piece that Brian's given me, but there may be the odd thing that leaps out. More trying to gain a bit of understanding than anything else.

Address:

There's some immediately obvious differences. I'd hazard a guess that my shoulders may be ever so slightly left (it's hard to tell on the DTL view, which isn't great due to positioning the camera on a hill), but the really obvious difference is the fact that the shaft isn't parallel with my left arm like in Mike's and therefore not preset. Also, my hips aren't bumped that little bit forward (Major point of note number 1) , although the tracksuit bottoms don't really help matters here! One more, and that's the right foot not being as flared out and my stance may be a touch narrow.

So, on Mike's 'Draw List' for setup:

- "Good" grip, left hand is in the fingers, heel pad on top - Ok, I think

- Aim your body parallel left or slight right of the target - Not convinced

- Feet are flared, knees are rotated out slightly - Could be better

- Axis tilt due to the hips being a few inches forward with the head not moving forward - No

Not a great start...

A2:

Looks ok, but left hip isn't in the right place after the poor setup at address and so my turn isn't as powerful (I guess that's the right word?!). My knees also aren't as turned out, which will probably affect rotation.

A3:

Mike's note:

• Hips turn with the left hip staying forward. Note the difference in the amount of torso rotation. Try to get in the 80-90 degree range by A3.

Torso rotation has happened, but it's really noticeable that my left hip isn't in the same position, probably for the most part due to my address position not being right. Interestingly, I also haven't cocked my wrists anywhere near as much as I think I have.

A4

Thought I'd make a bigger thing of this position as it's currently my target.

First off, my backswing is still longer than I think it is, even when aiming to make 'controlled swings', as you can tell by the left arm bending to wrap around my neck. (Major point of note number 2) . The club is still across the line at the top of the backswing, but then, I'm still working on that! What's really obvious though is that Mike looks so much more stable than I do, due to a better hip turn and the shorter backswing.

Secondly, that right elbow position still needs work as it's out to the left again - my guess is it will improve as a product of the shorter backswing, but it's another thing to be aware of when checking my progress. (Major point of note number 3) . As I guessed, I also need to get my left arm a touch lower so that my left hand is further left in this picture like on the right here:

A5

One last comparison, and I definitely knew this already:

Brian's already pointed this out and I'm sure it'll be the next thing on the list once I get myself in a better position at the top of the backswing to work on it. The downswing is seriously steep and my hands go way out rather than down meaning there's no option but to save the shot by cutting across the ball. Based on the results, it's getting a bit better as I fade rather than slice, but it needs to go away.

---

Ok, so what am I going to take from this, and what am I actually going to implement?

1. Keep working on that shorter backswing, keep checking it (it's better, but unsurprisingly, still a work in progress) and also check the position of my right elbow whilst I'm doing it. My checkpoints are:
   1. It's shorter.
   2. The right elbow is tucked in.
   3. Left hand lower at the top so that my left arm is on the same line as my shoulder plane.
2. Check my alignment at setup and particularly look at my left hip.

That's it. There's loads more I could do, but I trust that Brian will work on that when the time comes and I don't want to dilute my effectiveness when I'm practising. I do feel I'm making progress, and the fact that I now know what I need to do and what's going wrong is in itself major progress.

[b101]

Did manage to get to the range this afternoon for half an hour ahead of a round tomorrow so was just hitting balls rather than doing the usual swing stuff. The one thing that changed EVERYTHING though was the left hip at setup. Combining that with the shorter backswing and the AoA is clearly majorly different, with the driver in particular coming more out of the centre, flying higher and straighter - good signs of hitting up on the ball. Will try to get that feel back tomorrow morning, but it was a real mind-blower - long may it last!

Tonight's homework, in front of the PGA Championship, putting practice without a ball trying not to hit the pink tee on the left. I've never felt more of a golf geek!

[b101]

It's been an odd fortnight - due in part to the poor weather, in part to being away, the only thing I've really done has been to play a couple of rounds with friends. I actually think it's helped as I've just kept the one thought rather than going to the four or five that I have had. I've kept the hips bumped slightly forward at set up and felt like my backswing is just a half swing. The results have been fantastic based on the two rounds I've played - Brian had said that it would be pretty mindblowing when I got it down and whilst I'm probably still not all the way there, I've really seen a lot of progress, particularly with the irons. The one thing I'm struggling with has been my distance control with the irons due to the slight change in swing length, but they actually aren't too far off the former 'full swing'. Contact has felt amazing, with the ball flying off the face, and the shots have been straighter and higher. The one other thing I've noticed is that I've struggled a little more when I go hard at an iron, and probably just need to take one more club and swing easier. Anyway, some thoughts:

Round one - Friday 28/8/15 - Reigate Hill - +10

Played this with a friend - not my home course and I've played it just the once previously. It's not too long at 5,993 yards, but tight in places and I quite enjoyed taking the occasional 7 iron off the tee knowing that I'd still have a decent shot in. The most obvious stat was the GIR at 61% - I didn't putt particularly well and didn't put many approaches that close, but because I was hitting greens, I was making a lot of pars. A couple of slightly poor shots cost me dearly: the 7i on 14 was a misread of distance - I thought it was 150 to the front rather than 160 and came up 3 yards short, a topped 3 wood on 18 that I can't explain and a bladed tee shot on the 8th into heavy heavy rough basically lost me 6 shots. Other than that, it was very consistent and a really pleasing round.

http://www.gamegolf.com/player/benpage101/round/553450

Round two - Sunday 30/8/15 - Woldingham - +9

I used to be a junior here over 10 years ago so I vaguely remember the course. Again, ball striking was much better than previous rounds but the distance control was off. A couple of doubles were the main cost of shots with a really weird 6 iron on the 9th carrying 185 at least to cause an O.B. (on the practice putting area) and a rushed shot on the 12th (I couldn't immediately find a good shot off the tee so the group behind were closer than I'd have liked. Should have slowed down, but stupidly rushed it and caught it fat). The rough was very long in places, too, and I caught a couple of horrid lies on the 16th, hence the two fluffed pitches. Short game was decent but not spectacular and again, I holed nothing from over 6 feet, which is beginning to be a frustration. I actually putted well, hitting most of my lines, but the pace either wasn't quite right or I slightly misread it.

http://www.gamegolf.com/player/benpage101/round/558750

So, going forward:

- As much as I enjoy practising, I need to play. I need to hit shots on the course and really hone in on that distance control with the irons and learn to relish the pressure of putting for pars/birdies.

- Keep working on putts from 6-10 feet. I'm just not making them, and when I do have birdie putts from there, it'd be nice to hole a few.

- Chipping can be improved. I had a couple that went pin-high, but I'd like to feel more confident over them.

- Learn my new distances and keep ingraining that new backswing.

Again, it's been great to feel the improved control with the irons and I don't feel I've lost that much distance. Still, I'm sure it can get even better. I'll get some videos up some point this week to show where I am with the swing.

[b101]

Another month has flown by (back to work after the summer holidays, sadly!) with much less golf, but when I have played, I've really tried hard to improve on what Brian's told me to focus on. I'm definitely seeing results, too. The irons in particular are much more controllable and it's about 8/10 that I hit a green from inside 160 yards now. Putting still needs work as I lose my touch when I'm not playing often but everything else has been pretty good - with one major exception.

The latest bit of feedback I had was that all was going well with shortening the swing and the aim is now to get the path more neutral with a couple of drills revolving around teeing the ball up higher and aiming for a bit more lag into the ball with more dorsiflexion in the left wrist at impact. So far, it's been good, if a steep learning curve, but I can't do anything other than smother the driver... I'll keep working on it, but a low hook is all I can manage at the moment! I may try taking it off the draw setting but I'm pretty certain it'll be a swing flaw as it appeared the moment I started these drills. Weirdly, for everything else up to 3 wood, it's been great... Very odd, but I don't have the same ability to overpower a course when I'm not able to hit the driver safely. The 3 wood will peak at 240 max, so that's leaving a good 40/50 yards out there compared to my good hits with the driver...

Definitely a focus. I'll have more drills and videos up soon as I intend to sort this out asap!

[b101]

As promised - a couple of videos below of me doing my latest drill and the full swing. This is by no means the finished article, more a first attempt at checking the drill with Brian. The aim is to shallow out my path and based on the latest response from Brian, I need to slow down the rate at which my arms race out to the ball (he's told me this a number of times in different videos, but I'm still finding it tough!) and I'm confident that this will be the month I get this nailed. Loads of difference with the swing compared to at the beginning and I'll do a little bit of comparison later on in the week - with the shorter backswing, I'm finding the sweetspot way more often and it just all feels more controlled.

Hopefully, I'll get out to the course proper in a few days, but I'm trying to hit the range most evenings, at least for a little while. 

[b101]

Another couple of videos from today - I really got it today with the 7 iron, finding a lovely baby draw for pretty much every full swing, with just a slight fade on those few that didn't. Tired a bit toward the end of the session, but thought I'd post my practice (or at least some of it), with a Stupid Monkey clip. A few more full swing clips in a moment to compare...

 

[b101]

A quick comparison (annoyingly just lost the draft of this) between the old and the current swing:

Old: (annoyingly with the useless camera angle)

Current:

It's interesting that so many of the same traits are there, but how much of a difference the subtle changes make. Based on the changes I've seen, I'd have assumed they'd look way more different than they do.

• Definitely much less head movement than before (although could be better still...)
• SO much more controlled
• Much less cutting across the ball

There are a few things to keep working on, as ever:

• Pressure being more in my right heel/arch rather than going towards the toe during the backswing.
• Stopping my right elbow from racing out toward the ball to keep my path more right.
• Still aim to limit head movement
• At some point, my wrist angles, and therefore the angle of the club at the top of the backswing probably needs to change. Brian has mentioned this a couple of times, but as ever, I'm waiting on his say-so.

Generally though, loads of improvements 

[b101]

Whilst hunting through for some random photos earlier this evening, I found an even older (and more horrible) swing, from May 2014... Really quite painful to watch the number of compensations for poor grip, takeaway and alignment just to get the ball airborne...

[b101]

Definitely finding more consistency and I've finally been able to switch the driver and 3 wood back to the standard settings rather than 'max draw' as I'd started to hook it when I actually made good swings. I have noticed that most of my misses are now hitting the ball thin, which I reckon shows both that I am shallowing out the swing but also that my head movement could be limited yet further. Putting still needs a bit of work, but generally things are picking up and it's so nice feeling confident again with an iron in my hands! I will try to get another evolvr upload in this week, but am playing on Thursday and Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday next week so hopefully I'll make some more progress.

[b101]

A major breakthrough happened over the last few rounds in a very interesting fashion. First of all, I didn't play particularly well in any of them. As I mentioned recently, I feel like I'm hitting the ball better than ever, but not really seeing the results on the course... I think I've finally worked out why - my alignment is shocking.

Having spent so much time on the range recently, I've gotten used to having the alignment grids there for ease and I hadn't really practised getting my aim right at all. A friend pointed out to me during the round at Hankley that it might be something I should look at, and so I videoed a few tee shots in one round - I constantly aim way right of where I think I am, probably to combat the slice and therefore I'm either dead right or a massive hook. Sorting this out on the range today led to some of the best ball striking I've ever had, but I know that I'll need to do more on it over the coming week if I'm to take it to the course, where I can't just throw down an alignment stick.

So, first up the video:

Just because you can't tell from the angles unless you know the course - this tells me that my alignment was:

1st - ok, 3rd - way right, 4th, way right, 7th, way right, 8th - ok

My thoughts are: (sorry for poor camera angles)

• Most of the swings are actually pretty good (bar the out-of-the car shot on the first where I hit the ground first...). Annoyingly, I didn't film my best tee shots - a 250 yard 3 iron on the 2nd (admittedly with an elevation drop) and 9 iron to 2 feet on the 6th - due to people behind me, but the swing looks nice and controlled.
• My head still drops, but other than with the first shot, it didn't cause much of an issue with contact. I am totally expecting Brian to come back to me and say that's the next thing to work on though!
• Interesting to see the high draws on the 3rd and 7th, which are basically caused by my poor alignment. To find the green/fairway with that alignment is eye of the needle stuff really...
• Can still cut across the driver when I go for it - hence the lost ball on the 4th.

As for the rounds, they are below with a very brief summary:

Hankley Common (22nd October 2015)

- Dreadful off the tee and didn't know which way the ball was going to go. Most of the time I was scrambling for bogey. Struggled massively with the driver as well and realised mid-round that I was still hitting down on it which caused loads of issues. Nothing worse than a double, but way too many of them.

Hindhead (23rd October 2015)

- Some good stuff sprinkled throughout but the atrocities off the tee (1, 4, 9) prevented anything good. Putted well although iron play wasn't great with two shots where I hit behind the ball. Without wanting to seem like I'm brushing this under the carpet, it's not my normal miss and I think it's to do with me forgetting to properly get my weight forward at impact when I focus on something else (like the alignment). Definitely something to watch out for though as range mats can hide this flaw...

Edited October 25, 2015 by b101

[dunlucedreams]

backswing is miles shorter than before! 

 

you must be pretty happy with that?

 

 

[b101]

  On 10/25/2015 at 10:05 PM, dunlucedreams said:

backswing is miles shorter than before! 

 

you must be pretty happy with that?

 

 

Good to see it's as noticeable as I think it is! Yeah, I am - it's interesting that I don't feel I've lost any distance with it and I feel far more in control than I used to :)

[b101]

Really interesting latest round post-evolvr review from Brian. In a nutshell, he's pretty happy with the swing and is keen just to tweak little things based on anything I might see on the course. I have one drill to do based around closing the face a bit thereby forcing me to swing in-to-out. Armed with this knowledge, I went out on the course full of confidence for the first time in ages and it brought a really good nine holes. Sure, there were a few ropey shots, but mostly pretty good! It's a much easier course than my home course and the ability to limit how much I took the driver definitely helped. That's still the one area I really want to nail a bit more and will be what I look at next, but you'll see from the stats that everything else was pretty good. As I occasionally do, I'm going to have a little look at the Game Golf round and see what I can glean...

Hole 1 - Par 5 (460 yards)

Played off the yellows as I was with my little brother (finally getting him into golf). A slight tailwind was perfect and I hit the driver relatively easy... or so I thought. We kept walking down the fairway and it had gone miles... Rare that your second shot into a par 5 green is a Gap Wedge, and I found the middle for a good two putts. Bit of a silly way to play that hole, really!

Hole 2 - Par 4 (294 yards)

A nice short par 4 which you could drive, but it's hardly the sensible play, particularly with the flag at the front. A rubbish 3 iron did better than it deserved before I hit a good Lob Wedge that just carried a little too far. First putt was good for line, awful for pace and there's your bogey.

Hole 3 - Par 5 (468 yards)

Bit of an average drive which was playing to my miss. I started it over the bunker and the bad shot was always going to be a low-ish hook. The second shot, the 6 iron was the worst shot of the day by a mile. Ball below my feet and it was a thin slice. Ugh. Still, got on the green nicely and had a decent look at birdie.

Hole 4 - Par 4 (332 yards)

A tough tee shot that's actually really narrow. Bit of a scabby 3 iron to start but the 7 iron off a hanging lie was awesome (played for the draw ) and found pin high at the back of the green. A good two putt from there as it was very slopey...

Hole 5 - Par 3 (150 yards)

So, the GPS said 150, the scorecard said 150, the tee said 150. You hit 150 and go over the back. Annoying... Still, it was a bit overdrawn but the club should have been perfect. Got my alignment wrong on the chip, which was also a perfect distance and was left with a 6 footer which I missed. A few simple errors and there I am back over par in spite of hitting 2 good shots. Annoying.

Hole 6 - Par 4 (371 yards)

Great 3 wood, great wedge. 3 putted from nowhere. ARGH.

Hole 7 - Par 4 (326 yards)

A nice length par 4 and this time I caught the 3 iron properly. It's really nice to have a relatively safe 220 yard shot and I think this will be mine when I get a bit more confident with it. The wedge again was really good but the wind pushed it just off the green into a horrible bare lie on a hill above the green. Given that, it was a really nice up and down.

Hole 8 - Par 3 (179 yards)

Crap 5 iron that faded away into a nGIR. Had a fluffy lie and duffed the chip a bit and whilst the par putt was very good, it just rolled past. A silly bogey, really.

Hole 9 - Par 4 (372 yards)

I hate this hole and still have no idea what to do with the tee shot as the landing zone is just so ridiculously narrow. I think 3 iron is the play, but it wasn't a great shot and I pushed it wide. The hybrid was a silly play, but I had a half decent lie and thought I'd go for it. After that, it was a good up and down attempt, but the putt just didn't drop. Not a bad bogey given there were two poor shots.

Things to take away from this:

1. My driver can be a real weapon, when I know where it's likely to go and I need to be ready to throttle back a little bit. 330 yards when you're not really stepping on it shows just how important hitting the centre of the face is.
2. Whilst I like the 3 iron off the tee more than the hybrid (and, oddly, find it easier to control), it's not as great as I think it should be, with 2 of the 4 tee shots being bang average - although I did get away with one. Needs work - although I do have a driving iron arriving, which should be an interesting test.
3. 3 putts from the middle of the green need to disappear. Without them, I'd have been +2 overall. Improve the two average chipping mistakes as well and I'd have been level.
4. I'm really not far off where I want to be, just need to stay confident 

[iacas]

@b101, I realize you're working on some things and all that, but you should really pick up LSW.

There's likely no reason not to try for that one green, and several others deserve at least a 3W off the tee.

Happy for the results and work and everything, too! Great job! Keep it up.

[b101]

  On 10/28/2015 at 2:50 AM, iacas said:

@b101, I realize you're working on some things and all that, but you should really pick up LSW.

There's likely no reason not to try for that one green, and several others deserve at least a 3W off the tee.

Happy for the results and work and everything, too! Great job! Keep it up.

Thanks @iacas I actually have it - and have gone for that green in the past (fortunately ending up just above the bunker and making birdie - which I guess proves your point!). In all honesty, I'm not so sure where the driver is going at the moment, and it seemed to make more sense to play safer. There is some very thick rough over the back of the green on a hill that slopes back down towards the green and given that I'd just put one 330 yards down, I didn't want to run the risk of going too far. I thought about the 3W, but that brought the bunkers into play, and the 3i was therefore the safe play - at least to my mind. Looking back on it, going over the left hand bunkers with the 3W maybe makes a bit more sense, but with the driver, I'd have had to cut it down a bit and God only knows where that would have ended up!

Agreed on the other holes, Hole 7 is definitely a 3W, looking back at it. - not sure what I should do on Hole 9 so am willing to take any advice. I hit a provisional with the driver and whilst I connected well, I couldn't see it down in the light over the creek and couldn't find it. Hole 4 seems a bit too tight for a driver for me, with a massive drop off left of the fairway all the way along and woods right. I hit a bad shot with the 3 iron, but, given the smaller shot zone, I was still ok. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by b101

[b101]

Another round yesterday - this time at my home course - in phenomenally difficult conditions. It was about a 3/4 club wind, perfectly evidenced by one hole in particular:

Genuinely, two of the best shots I've hit for ages with both clubs. Dead centre strikes with good swings and I was 60 yards short on a par 4. Granted, it normally takes driver, 6 iron and is usually into the prevailing wind, but that was silly!

Link to the round here:

http://www.gamegolf.com/player/benpage101/round/650373

Basic summary:

• 13 over in absurd conditions - feels like about 6 over! Basically threw it away on the front nine, taking 7 at the tough par 3 third.
• Mostly very good, but what is holding me back is the occasional awful shot (tee shots on the first and third, SW on the eighth)
• Additionally, learn where to miss it on some of the trickier par 3s. Going left rather than right on both 3 and 8 would have left me with makeable shots to the green. Right gave me nothing - although I honestly thought the tee shot on 8 was perfect - just a silly wind.
• I had loads more looks at birdie than in recent times and I credit Brian for all the work he's done on my swing.
• Play off the tee was very good, but I did have two horror snap hooks in the wind, which I'll continue to work on eradicating. It's definitely getting there, but I don't feel like I 'own' my driver swing just yet.
• I'd like to make more putts from around the 10 foot range - it just isn't happening at the moment. Just about to head to the course for some proper short game practice so will be working on starting line and pace.

Overall though, it's definitely getting there. The horror miss is still hitting behind the ball and catching it fat, which I guess is still due to excessive head movement. There were some really good bits out there however and I have never felt better swinging than I did on the back nine.