Club face angle relative to grip question

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, natureboy said:

Not quite clear what closed relative to your grip means. Do you mean closed relative to your body alignment relative to the target?

Here's how I interpret it. If he took his grip, then stood up with his hands in front of him, the face would look "closed" or slightly hooded.

[natureboy]

11 hours ago, mvmac said:

Here's how I interpret it. If he took his grip, then stood up with his hands in front of him, the face would look "closed" or slightly hooded.

That's what I thought too, but wasn't positive from his wording. Sort of how one might open the clubface in the bunker while keeping a regular grip relative to your body.

[natureboy]

18 hours ago, Frank62 said:

When I say "closed relative to my grip" I'm actually talking about how the club is sitting in my hands. Take a normal (neutral) grip and then imagine the club being rotated a few degrees anti-clockwise in your hands. Rotating it clockwise "opens" the club face relative to the grip. This is how I determine the starting path of the ball and I'm beginning to think that although I've had some success with it that it probably isn't a wise method.

I'm thinking that I should be lining myself and the club face square but right of the target (for a draw) and changing the way I swing to manipulate the swing path so that it is aiming further right may be the smarter option.

Don't know what is orthodox per 5SK, but the way I do it is along the lines of what Nicklaus recommended. I like it because it builds on using your existing 'normal' swing path relative to your body alignments and setup rather than altering the path relative to your body. But many have played great golf adjusting their swing path around a stance that is square to the target.

So for a 'Nicklaus' draw, close the stance (align right) somewhat to the intended target line and align the face (rotate it relative to your normal grip and body lines in your terms) so that it is facing between the stance line (~ path) and target line. Club face will be open to the target line so it will start right of it, but the face is closed to the direction of the swing path (assuming normal ball position) Swing normally along the stance line and the ball should draw back toward the target line. How much will depend - you have to play with it a bit.

One caveat is this approach assumes that with a stance and swing 'parallel' to the target line you can hit a fairly straight shot at the target. If you 'stock' swing tends to produce a strong draw or a fade normally you may have to align your stance or adjust the grip a bit more than someone else.

[Frank62]

15 hours ago, mvmac said:

Here's how I interpret it. If he took his grip, then stood up with his hands in front of him, the face would look "closed" or slightly hooded.

 

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

That's what I thought too, but wasn't positive from his wording. Sort of how one might open the clubface in the bunker while keeping a regular grip relative to your body.

You are both correct. That's exactly what I have been trying to convey.

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

Don't know what is orthodox per 5SK, but the way I do it is along the lines of what Nicklaus recommended. I like it because it builds on using your existing 'normal' swing path relative to your body alignments and setup rather than altering the path relative to your body. But many have played great golf adjusting their swing path around a stance that is square to the target.

So for a 'Nicklaus' draw, close the stance (align right) somewhat to the intended target line and align the face (rotate it relative to your normal grip and body lines in your terms) so that it is facing between the stance line (~ path) and target line. Club face will be open to the target line so it will start right of it, but the face is closed to the direction of the swing path (assuming normal ball position) Swing normally along the stance line and the ball should draw back toward the target line. How much will depend - you have to play with it a bit.

One caveat is this approach assumes that with a stance and swing 'parallel' to the target line you can hit a fairly straight shot at the target. If you 'stock' swing tends to produce a strong draw or a fade normally you may have to align your stance or adjust the grip a bit more than someone else.

This is the method I have been struggling with! Having said that, it is the method I find easiest to set up to. If find it simple to simply align myself right of the target and then align the face so that it is between the target line and stance line. I never new it was called the 'Nicklaus draw'.

I think I might be guilty on occasion of having the club face too hooded which is affecting my swing and ensuing ball striking. I think I'll persist with this method and hopefully develop more consistent results.

I guess I needed confirmation that I was on the right track with my methods for shot shaping. You have all been most helpful. Thank you.

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, Frank62 said:

I think I might be guilty on occasion of having the club face too hooded which is affecting my swing and ensuing ball striking. I think I'll persist with this method and hopefully develop more consistent results.

I guess I needed confirmation that I was on the right track with my methods for shot shaping. You have all been most helpful. Thank you.

It's not called the 'Nicklaus draw.' He doesn't own a patent on that shape shot. I just refer to it that way, because his book 'Golf My Way' may have been one of the earliest to describe setting up to shape a shot that way - with the face aiming between the target line and the intended path.

It indicates to me (but does not prove) that he may have been among the early exponents of the face being more important to initial ball direction. Many who believed the path determined initial ball direction would hit a draw with a square face at address and then swing across the target line to 'push' it out right of the target with the path. They could get it to work with practice and/or compensations, but they were wrong about the relative contributions of face angle and path to the shot.

Were you asking about hitting a higher draw too?

[Frank62]

Poor choice of words. I guess I should have said I had never heard it referred to as the 'Nicklaus draw'. Jack was definitely a man before his time.

With regard to the higher draw I think I was achieving that with my open club face with a neutral grip (as in your bunker shot analogy). Although I also seemed to be achieving excellent distance as well. I changed to the 'Nicklaus draw' technique because I found the set up easier to deploy. I am really at a crossroad as to which method I should persist with. I guess time on the range will tell me.

Just getting off topic for a moment. I wasn't able to quote your post in my reply. I am noticing some weird behaviour when trying to quote posts in my replies. Clearing the browser cache doesn't seem to help. I am switching between Chrome and IE with some success but the behaviour seems to persist in both browsers atm.

Also, how do you edit your own posts? I noticed I spelled "knew as "new" in a previous post but could not find a way of correcting it.

[mvmac]

4 hours ago, Frank62 said:

Just getting off topic for a moment. I wasn't able to quote your post in my reply. I am noticing some weird behaviour when trying to quote posts in my replies. Clearing the browser cache doesn't seem to help. I am switching between Chrome and IE with some success but the behaviour seems to persist in both browsers atm.

Not sure what the issue is but there are a couple ways you can quote posts now.

4 hours ago, Frank62 said:

Also, how do you edit your own posts? I noticed I spelled "knew as "new" in a previous post but could not find a way of correcting it.

Members who have not yet advanced to "Established Member" status have nine (9) minutes to edit a post. And here's info on becoming an Established Member and editing time limits.