New 2017 Pro V1 and Pro V1x

[1badbadger]

I just watched a video Titleist released on the new Pro V1 and Pro V1x.  The golf ball fitting manager was explaining to a group of Team Titleist amateurs the improvements made in the new versions, and discussed the differences between the two models. He made several comments about the differences that I found interesting:

• The Pro V1 launches lower, has an overall lower trajectory with more roll-out.  Pro V1x launches higher with more carry and a steeper angle of descent which rolls-out less.  He claims that both balls have about the same overall distance, "they just get there in different ways".
• Pro V1 has a softer feel than Pro V1x
• Off the driver, both balls spin nearly the same.  Off irons and wedges, Pro V1 spins less than Pro V1x.

There are a couple of things that caught my attention.  First, if you boil it down, he is saying the only performance difference between them is the trajectory off the driver and the spin off the irons.  Other than feel, those are the only two differences?  The Pro V1 having a softer feel than the x is the same as it's always been, but at some point a few years ago everything else seemed to flip-flop.  The regular Pro V used to be the higher trajectory, higher spinning model and the x was the lower trajectory, lower spinning ball. It's the opposite of what it used to be, which I find strange.

I haven't hit either ball, so I'm just going off of Titleist's description, but in my opinion the performance gap between the new Pro V1 and Pro V1x is too close.  There seems to be a lot of overlap.  The differences should be more defined with each model designed for a certain purpose or type of player.

What do you Pro V guys think about the new versions?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

There are a couple of things that caught my attention.  First, if you boil it down, he is saying the only performance difference between them is the trajectory off the driver and the spin off the irons.

The trajectory difference applies to irons, too.

3 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

Other than feel, those are the only two differences?

I believe that on short game shots the V1 often spins a bit more than the V1x.

3 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I haven't hit either ball, so I'm just going off of Titleist's description, but in my opinion the performance gap between the new Pro V1 and Pro V1x is too close.  There seems to be a lot of overlap.  The differences should be more defined with each model designed for a certain purpose or type of player.

I don't know. I think maybe Bridgestone having four models is too many. I can play all of them and barely notice any difference in performance. If Titleist's PGA Tour pros are content with two models, then the amateurs playing their balls seem to be just fine too.

Snell has only one premium ball, and it too seems to fit a really wide range of players.

If one model fits 90% of golfers, and two fit 96%… do you need four to get to 98% or 99%?

[boogielicious]

11 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

I just watched a video Titleist released on the new Pro V1 and Pro V1x.  The golf ball fitting manager was explaining to a group of Team Titleist amateurs the improvements made in the new versions, and discussed the differences between the two models. He made several comments about the differences that I found interesting:

• The Pro V1 launches lower, has an overall lower trajectory with more roll-out.  Pro V1x launches higher with more carry and a steeper angle of descent which rolls-out less.  He claims that both balls have about the same overall distance, "they just get there in different ways".
• Pro V1 has a softer feel than Pro V1x
• Off the driver, both balls spin nearly the same.  Off irons and wedges, Pro V1 spins less than Pro V1x.

There are a couple of things that caught my attention.  First, if you boil it down, he is saying the only performance difference between them is the trajectory off the driver and the spin off the irons.  Other than feel, those are the only two differences?  The Pro V1 having a softer feel than the x is the same as it's always been, but at some point a few years ago everything else seemed to flip-flop.  The regular Pro V used to be the higher trajectory, higher spinning model and the x was the lower trajectory, lower spinning ball. It's the opposite of what it used to be, which I find strange.

I haven't hit either ball, so I'm just going off of Titleist's description, but in my opinion the performance gap between the new Pro V1 and Pro V1x is too close.  There seems to be a lot of overlap.  The differences should be more defined with each model designed for a certain purpose or type of player.

What do you Pro V guys think about the new versions?

I've always felt the ProV1 was the higher launching ball. That is why I play with it. The reversal seems interesting. I've got a bunch of the current model to go through, but I would be interested to try the new versions.

I do like the softer feel of the ProV1 over the x.

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

The reversal seems interesting.

I don't think it's a reversal. I think the V1 has always launched a bit lower.

From the comments here on this 2009 review, (my comment, having talked to Titleist):

Quote

Titleist will tell you that the Pro V1 launches about a degree lower than the Pro V1x.

So I think they've always been that way.

[boogielicious]

Just now, iacas said:

I don't think it's a reversal. I think the V1 has always launched a bit lower.

From the comments here on this 2009 review, (my comment, having talked to Titleist):

So I think they've always been that way.

Yes, I recall that now. But it think they used to say the flight would be higher overall with the spin affect. Or maybe I'm just having a senior moment.

[1badbadger]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

The trajectory difference applies to irons, too.

I believe that on short game shots the V1 often spins a bit more than the V1x.

I don't know. I think maybe Bridgestone having four models is too many. I can play all of them and barely notice any difference in performance. If Titleist's PGA Tour pros are content with two models, then the amateurs playing their balls seem to be just fine too.

Snell has only one premium ball, and it too seems to fit a really wide range of players.

If one model fits 90% of golfers, and two fit 96%… do you need four to get to 98% or 99%?

The trajectory and spin information was taken right from the Titleist promo video.  It's possible that some players may notice more spin with the reg Pro V on short shots, but according to Titleist the Pro V1x is designed to be the higher spinning of the two models.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the two models.  I'm not saying they shouldn't offer two models, I'm saying that the new versions that they just released seem to be closer in performance than the previous versions.  There used to be more of a noticeable difference, but it sounds like the changes that were made have closed that gap.

You mentioned the Bridgestone B Series which is a good example.  Each model has different characteristics.  It's noticeable enough that I find it hard to believe that you don't see much of a difference.

I don't know about the argument that one model fits about 90% of players and two fit 96%...I realize you're trying to make a point and not claiming these are actual statistics you saw somewhere, but I don't think it's a valid point.  If Titleist discontinued the Pro V1x tomorrow, a lot of the players who used it would probably just start playing the reg Pro V.  Does that mean the Pro V fits 96% of the players?  No.  It just would be the only option.  There was a need for the Pro V1x, but if it were no longer offered it doesn't mean the need went away. You could go the other way too...what if Titleist added another model to the Pro V line (they actually did it back in 2001 or maybe 2002 or around that time...who remembers the Pro V1 Star?)  The Pro V1 Star fit in between the reg Pro V and the Pro V1x performance-wise.  That was at a time when there was a noticeable difference between the two, but there wasn't so big that another model was needed to fill the gap.  For a point of reference though, the B330-RX accounts for 21% of player fittings,the B330 and B330-RXS account for 12% and the B330-S is 10%.  The RX is by far the model that fits the most players in the B Series, but the other 3 have close to an equal share, so I would debate the theory that 2 models are enough to cover almost everything, and adding another model or two isn't worth it. The other 45% of players by the way fit into the e Series.

Since we're on the subject, the comment about Titleist's Tour Staff being content with two models won't hold up either.  I'm sure you are aware that there are many versions of the Pro V that are available to Tour players but are not offered for retail or to the general public.  They also continue to make discontinued versions from several generations ago for players who prefer it over the current offerings.  There are at least 11 different Pro V models on the conforming list.  I don't have an issue with this, but let's not pretend that their staff players are content with two models!

Fun stuff...this is better than a cup of coffee!    

[Groucho Valentine]

The V1 has always launched lower for me as well. On all clubs. I actually hit the V1 further with a driver than i do the 1x, but I'm shorter with the v1 using an iron or hybrid. I use the 1x usually because I'm more concerned with distance with my irons than i am off the tee, and i just spin the previous ProV models too much. It the new one spins less, i might switch. 

So these new advertised characteristics are interesting and i cant wait to try them . I didn't get any sleeves of test balls from titliest like i usually do...

[1badbadger]

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't think it's a reversal. I think the V1 has always launched a bit lower.

From the comments here on this 2009 review, (my comment, having talked to Titleist):

So I think they've always been that way.

That review actually states that the Pro V spins more than the Pro V1x

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Yes, I recall that now. But it think they used to say the flight would be higher overall with the spin affect. Or maybe I'm just having a senior moment.

Higher overall is dependent on your swing characteristics. Higher launch tends to be more consistent.

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

The trajectory and spin information was taken right from the Titleist promo video.  It's possible that some players may notice more spin with the reg Pro V on short shots, but according to Titleist the Pro V1x is designed to be the higher spinning of the two models.

On full swings. On shorter shots, the softer cover (and extra layer IIRC) matters more and leads to more spin.

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the two models.  I'm not saying they shouldn't offer two models, I'm saying that the new versions that they just released seem to be closer in performance than the previous versions. There used to be more of a noticeable difference, but it sounds like the changes that were made have closed that gap.

No, I'm just saying that maybe there's not much to the multiple models thing. Maybe they're finding that golfers almost all get better performance out of one ball, but like that they can choose.

I read a study in an economics class that stands out. A company found that they truly only had one product, as over time their three products had all converged into one. I forget what it was - something relatively simple. They found, though, that if they marketed just one model that people went to other brands because they felt they weren't being heard by the company. So the company reverted, shipped three identical models with different names, and regained their market share and sales numbers. The products were the same.

Given the importance of the golf ball to Titleist, I'm inclined to think they know what they're doing. That's not to say it's a guarantee, just an inclination.

Snell has one premium ball. I haven't met many who don't like it. So why does a company need 3? 4?

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

You mentioned the Bridgestone B Series which is a good example.  Each model has different characteristics.  It's noticeable enough that I find it hard to believe that you don't see much of a difference.

I can feel the difference. In performance, it doesn't vary all that much.

Titleist could make the same type of chart, except they'd have two models instead of four. Those bar graphs are arbitrary, just as your interpretation of a Titleist video is.

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I don't know about the argument that one model fits about 90% of players and two fit 96%...I realize you're trying to make a point and not claiming these are actual statistics you saw somewhere, but I don't think it's a valid point.

Right, the numbers are made up.

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

If Titleist discontinued the Pro V1x tomorrow, a lot of the players who used it would probably just start playing the reg Pro V.  Does that mean the Pro V fits 96% of the players? No.  It just would be the only option.

The thing is… how much would their performance drop or change if they switched models.

I think you're overstating the differences between golf balls. Virtually ANY modern golf ball is within a pretty narrow range, IMO. Take all top-level balls, and people far and wide will play virtually the same with any of them. A degree of difference in launch, 300 RPM difference in spin… virtually unnoticeable by most.

And on the retail and consumer side of things, retailers like fewer SKUs. Customers like fewer SKUs. Less confusing.

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

The RX is by far the model that fits the most players in the B Series, but the other 3 have close to an equal share, so I would debate the theory that 2 models are enough to cover almost everything, and adding another model or two isn't worth it. The other 45% of players by the way fit into the e Series.

If the performance difference of the four models for most players is small, then the downsides to having four models start to weigh down the small advantages. Perhaps of those 21% or whatever, they'd lose half a yard if they used a different model ball, but may actually like how the ball performs around the greens.

I realize you're loyal to Bridgestone, and that's fine. I am partly playing devil's advocate, and partly arguing a point I believe: that most modern balls are awfully close to one another in terms of performance.

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I'm sure you are aware that there are many versions of the Pro V that are available to Tour players but are not offered for retail or to the general public.  They also continue to make discontinued versions from several generations ago for players who prefer it over the current offerings.  There are at least 11 different Pro V models on the conforming list.  I don't have an issue with this, but let's not pretend that their staff players are content with two models!

Most of the conforming models are older ones. A pro has a good season and really likes the 2009 Pro V1x, so they stick with that. And without giving much away, oftentimes the "special" models aren't as special as the guy thinks…

Dean Snell of all people told a funny story about Sergio when TaylorMade was first introducing their ball. Sergio kept saying he wanted his ball to fly like his Titleists. Later in the development Dean played a trick on Sergio - he stamped some of the TaylorMade balls "Titleist" and had Sergio hit a bunch of both. Sergio would hit a "Titleist" and say something like "see, I like that flight, why can't you make the ball do that?" Later Dean revealed that he'd liked the flight of the TaylorMade balls, but he was literally fooled by the stamp into thinking it was a Titleist.

Since I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here… I've kind of exhausted the points I feel I can make. I think.

14 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

That review actually states that the Pro V spins more than the Pro V1x

Back then that was Titleist claimed. The (non-)reversal was regarding launch.

[Divotmaker77]

Do you folks have any opinions or suggestions on the right golf ball for firm greens?  I am not a high ball launcher so could use some help with a ball that will get higher and "stick" to the greens better.  My club replaced the greens this past year with Tiff Eagle Bermuda and it is very hard to keep the ball from rolling off even after very good shots.  Nothing sucks worse than hitting right at the pin on a Par 3 only to see it roll 20 yards passed the pin because the greens are just too firm.  10 HC with some "handsy" tendencies causing more spin that I would like.  Swing Speed is anywhere from 95-110 depending on how the body is feeling (have back issues).  

[1badbadger]

4 hours ago, Divotmaker77 said:

Do you folks have any opinions or suggestions on the right golf ball for firm greens?  I am not a high ball launcher so could use some help with a ball that will get higher and "stick" to the greens better.  My club replaced the greens this past year with Tiff Eagle Bermuda and it is very hard to keep the ball from rolling off even after very good shots.  Nothing sucks worse than hitting right at the pin on a Par 3 only to see it roll 20 yards passed the pin because the greens are just too firm.  10 HC with some "handsy" tendencies causing more spin that I would like.  Swing Speed is anywhere from 95-110 depending on how the body is feeling (have back issues).  

This might be a tricky one Divot.  It's tough when you're already spinning the ball too much, but it still has a tendency to release and roll to the back of the green.  Is your trajectory that low that even with excessive spin you're not able to stop the ball?  What ball do you currently play?

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Divotmaker77 said:

Do you folks have any opinions or suggestions on the right golf ball for firm greens?  I am not a high ball launcher so could use some help with a ball that will get higher and "stick" to the greens better.  My club replaced the greens this past year with Tiff Eagle Bermuda and it is very hard to keep the ball from rolling off even after very good shots.  Nothing sucks worse than hitting right at the pin on a Par 3 only to see it roll 20 yards passed the pin because the greens are just too firm.  10 HC with some "handsy" tendencies causing more spin that I would like.  Swing Speed is anywhere from 95-110 depending on how the body is feeling (have back issues).  

It might just be a matter of waiting for the greens to soften a bit, too. New greens are sometimes rather firm. Especially if they rebuilt the supporting layers when they resurfaced them.

But yeah, if you're spinning the ball plenty, but launching it really low and landing it sharply. 20 yards of roll is a lot.

[Divotmaker77]

39 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

This might be a tricky one Divot.  It's tough when you're already spinning the ball too much, but it still has a tendency to release and roll to the back of the green.  Is your trajectory that low that even with excessive spin you're not able to stop the ball?  What ball do you currently play?

I am not a numbers guy so I can't say exactly what launch degrees and all I am getting.  I would say I am a medium launch hitter.  I do not hit a really low ball so its not a deal of the ball darting to the green and having no choice but to roll.  Solid ball striker, just not a great shot maker (yet).  If I play on mature Bentgrass I leave a nice divot and stop the ball fine so its definitely a product of the new greens.  They replaced them entirely adding new layers and all.  

Ball wise, I currently play with the Callaway Chrome Soft.  I bought a sleeve of Bridgestone B3330S but have not been able to play them on these greens yet.  I have always liked ProV1 balls but was getting a lot of spin with them and thought I would try others to see if I like them more.   Agree with iacas, it may just be a case of having to wait for the greens to mature and soften up a bit, but I am curious about trying out the new Prov1X if it launches higher.

[1badbadger]

5 hours ago, Divotmaker77 said:

Do you folks have any opinions or suggestions on the right golf ball for firm greens?  I am not a high ball launcher so could use some help with a ball that will get higher and "stick" to the greens better.  My club replaced the greens this past year with Tiff Eagle Bermuda and it is very hard to keep the ball from rolling off even after very good shots.  Nothing sucks worse than hitting right at the pin on a Par 3 only to see it roll 20 yards passed the pin because the greens are just too firm.  10 HC with some "handsy" tendencies causing more spin that I would like.  Swing Speed is anywhere from 95-110 depending on how the body is feeling (have back issues).  

 

52 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

This might be a tricky one Divot.  It's tough when you're already spinning the ball too much, but it still has a tendency to release and roll to the back of the green.  Is your trajectory that low that even with excessive spin you're not able to stop the ball?  What ball do you currently play?

 

36 minutes ago, iacas said:

It might just be a matter of waiting for the greens to soften a bit, too. New greens are sometimes rather firm. Especially if they rebuilt the supporting layers when they resurfaced them.

But yeah, if you're spinning the ball plenty, but launching it really low and landing it sharply. 20 yards of roll is a lot.

 

4 minutes ago, Divotmaker77 said:

I am not a numbers guy so I can't say exactly what launch degrees and all I am getting.  I would say I am a medium launch hitter.  I do not hit a really low ball so its not a deal of the ball darting to the green and having no choice but to roll.  Solid ball striker, just not a great shot maker (yet).  If I play on mature Bentgrass I leave a nice divot and stop the ball fine so its definitely a product of the new greens.  They replaced them entirely adding new layers and all.  

Ball wise, I currently play with the Callaway Chrome Soft.  I bought a sleeve of Bridgestone B3330S but have not been able to play them on these greens yet.  I have always liked ProV1 balls but was getting a lot of spin with them and thought I would try others to see if I like them more.   Agree with iacas, it may just be a case of having to wait for the greens to mature and soften up a bit, but I am curious about trying out the new Prov1X if it launches higher.

Yes, I agree with iacas also...if this is the only course where you are having this issue, I wouldn't make a ball change. I honestly don't know how long it takes for new greens to soften up and start receiving shots, so I'll leave that for someone else to answer.

Since the new version of the Pro V1x was just released, I don't know how it compares to the Chrome Soft in terms of trajectory yet, but I'm sure we'll start seeing feedback on how it performs pretty quick.