My Swing (Jrobber)

[JRobber]

Hitting 100 yard Drives that nose dive (dead duck effect)! Can't stop, please help!

I've been Playing Golf for: 30 years
My current handicap index or average score is: 16
My typical ball flight is: With Driver a bit of a fade (at least it used to be)
The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is: short dead duck

Recently I started hitting drives that only go about 100 yards and then nose dive into the ground.

For the past several years my driver has been my most reliable club. I don't hit super long, but it always had a high flight and typically carried about 220 and roll to 250.

For the last few years I started having trouble with irons and recently had very good results with a bit of a closed face at address and an exaggerated feeling of lag (i.e. the club coming last - after hips shoulder turn on follow through). I think this is creeping into my driver swing and now I can't hit a drive to save my life!

I think the cause could be that I'm closing the face or releasing too early. When I try to weaken my grip, it feels really strange, like i can get any power (and I think Ive always had a strong-ish grip). I am not too sure how to avoid releasing too early (if that's what I'm doing), any drills?
 
My problems and symptoms sound very similar to what @laffi11 reported here (but the tips given aren't helping me or I'm not executing properly):

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/76574-i-keep-putting-top-spin-on-the-ball-with-my-driver/

Things I have tried and results:

- Try hitting more 'up' on the ball
result: seems I end up hitting the bottom of face and get worm burner's

- Lower tee (in the past I had good success with higher tee - but no longer)
result: still hit dead duck and probably hit lower on face more often

- Less lower body movement and feel to only turn shoulders
result: hit some good drives, but not as much distance and dead duck crept back in

- Use dry erase marker on ball to check where I'm hitting on face
result: many times I confirmed to hit dead centre, but still get 100 yard dead duck!

- Speed up swing or swing 'harder'
result: I sometimes hit awful pop-ups that go 50 yards. Assume I am getting too steep on the way down or outside in.

 Part of the problem is I keep trying new things on the range and I can never get back to my old swing, which may be compounding the issues here.

Any suggestions on drills etc would be appreciated.

I know the videos are not the best quality or position. I can post more if necasssary.

Thanks!

---

Videos: 

Here is my new bad swing (dead duck result):

Here is an even worse exmaple:

Here is my old swing that I was getting 'good' restuls from only a month or so ago:

 

[iacas]

You're swinging out a TON, hitting the ball in the heel, and delivering very little loft at impact.

[JRobber]

Hi @iacas

do you have any advice on how I can stop hitting out so much? Drills, swing thoughts?

-still struggling 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, JRobber said:

Hi @iacas

do you have any advice on how I can stop hitting out so much? Drills, swing thoughts?

-still struggling 

I do. But how about poking around and contributing to other topics and discussions here?

Put a stick on your target line, at about a 45° angle, about 4' in front of the golf ball. Then swing UNDER the stick. You won't swing out and be able to do that.

[JRobber]

Thanks @iacas I will certainly try the tip and also to try and contribute more (not sure anyone wants golf advice from me though ?)

[iacas]

Just now, JRobber said:

Thanks @iacas I will certainly try the tip and also to try and contribute more (not sure anyone wants golf advice from me though ?)

You can talk about the PGA Tour, rules, your league, etc. You don't have to give instructional advice!

[downbylaw11]

you appear to have the worlds strongest grip in those 2 videos and your face looks like its about 20 degrees closed at impact though I can't tell for sure

 

the video of the 'good drive' the grip looks a little more neutral.  

I don't have any tips, just wondering if this a correct observation? 

I went through a little stretch of the same thing with the woods recently and basically just decided to re-check all of my fundamentals to a good swing.  sometimes to get back on track you gotta go back to the beginning

[JRobber]

Hi @downbylaw11

I think it's an accurate observation and I've been working to weaken the grip. It just feels really powerless on the backswing and I just end up closing the face part way through my back swing, very annoying as I never used to do that!

Trouble really started for me when researching how to avoid 'skying' my drives (which I'd only do occasionally) Some advice online was to hit more up on the ball, get behind it and don't come over the top. I believe this got me over compensating, leading to the stronger grip and staying back too much on the follow through, swinging out too much as per @iacas

You think I could just go back to my old swing but to no avail! 

Thanks for the advice

 

[downbylaw11]

having too strong a grip caused me to avoid the true causes of some of my problems. i battle a slice with the driver as well when im going through tough times, and often times I would just strengthen my grip and hit some nice ones, and even start hitting it the opposite direction, which I thought was ok at the time, but really all i was doing was coming over the top with a closed club face and I'd end up snap hooking the ball, this eventually led to the same problem you're having which i also had never ever had in my entire golfing life.  I was pretty confused like you probably are.  but what a strong grip does is cause the hands to over rotate because the tendency is to open the clubface on the backswing, and the hands have to turn over through impact to rescue this, but luckily the strong grip allows for a ton of hand activity.  at least that is my understanding of it.  most of the top players in the world utilize a stronger than neutral grip because (and i believe this is the reason but don't quote me) their club is moving so fast through impact that they need the help from the strong grip to get the face square since they've created so much lag, hips are fully cleared, and shoulders are slightly open, which would usually create an open club face if you were using a neutral grip and your weight was on your front foot with your hands trailing behind. 

 

maybe @iacas can delete all this if it's untrue as I don't want to be spreading incorrect information about the swing. 

[JRobber]

Thanks @downbylaw11

nice to know someone had the exact same issue!

what techniques or tips did you use to get to a more nuetral grip?

 

[JRobber]

Hi @downbylaw11 and @iacas

i actually have 2 face on view videos...one yeilded a good result of about 240 yards and the other was the bad. Use dive drive.

 

heres the bad:

 

heres the good:

problem is I can't really see the difference and I can't repeat the 'good' swing with any consistency. I see maybe a weaker grip and less hip shift to the right (better hip turn) on the good one.

What do you guys see here?

I don't like my balance on the follow through if either swing - guess as you say I need to go back to basics here.

 

Thanks again for all the advice much appreciated! Golf is one of my greatest joys in life and it's hard to enjoy anymore with this issue.

 

 

 

[downbylaw11]

um, i simply used a more neutral grip.  no magic, just moved the hands.  then again i'm always tinkering with grips so it's normal to me. i use a slightly strong grip normally.  but when i got into trouble was when i told myself, 'hey im slicing the driver, so i clearly have an open club face, so ill just use a strong grip which promotes a closed club face and that will solve all my problems', which of course is only part of the issue, and more of a bandaid fix than a solution since a slice usually involves and out to in swing path as well as an open club face, so i was really only partially solving a problem by closing the club face. if your swing timing is off, you will begin to hit pull hooks if you come out to in with a closed club face. so i now just go back to using a more neutral grip and working on getting my swing path to be more straight or in to out. 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, JRobber said:

heres the bad:

 

Yeah, the right hand in particular is REALLY strong.

Here's an older possibly relevant topic:

You don't want to go back to over-the-top and steep (skied drives), but you've gone too far toward a strong grip and an inside-out swing.

[downbylaw11]

5 minutes ago, JRobber said:

Hi @downbylaw11 and @iacas

i actually have 2 face on view videos...one yeilded a good result of about 240 yards and the other was the bad. Use dive drive.

 

heres the bad:

 

heres the good:

problem is I can't really see the difference and I can't repeat the 'good' swing with any consistency. I see maybe a weaker grip and less hip shift to the right (better hip turn) on the good one.

What do you guys see here?

I don't like my balance on the follow through if either swing - guess as you say I need to go back to basics here.

 

Thanks again for all the advice much appreciated! Golf is one of my greatest joys in life and it's hard to enjoy anymore with this issue.

 

5 minutes ago, JRobber said:

 

 

 

how much tension do you have in your arms/upper body during your swing?  the video looks like your arms and shoulders are super duper stiff.  i believe that one of the biggest causes of numerous issues throughout the swing can be caused by being way too tense in the upper body and arms.  it causes the shoulders to want to dive into the ball instead of staying back and creating lag, and i believe it makes it harder to shift the weight in the correct sequence on the downswing which also causes and over the top move. 

anyways, one thing i observed with myself, and how my swing 'felt' when i was having this problem you are having, is that it felt like while i was hitting up on the ball, which people recommend, i was also at the same time hitting the ball in a manner that was creating top spin on the ball. so i guess you could say i was hitting so far up on the ball, that my clubhead was skipping over the top of the ball instead of hitting it on the sweet spot on an upward directional path.  and if you look at the issue your having, it kinda makes sense right?   hitting down on the ball makes it go up, hitting up on the ball makes it go down.  i would probably maybe try to go for less shoulder tilt which seems like was a 'fix' for you anyways, and not something that is necessarily standard in your swing, or really all that necessary for good driving.  it can give you some extra yards if you do it right, but if you don't, it can **** up other things. 

I would seriously look at tension as something you should reduce.  just walk right up to the ball and take a loose whippy swing and see what happens. i mean, that is if you are stiff. 

 

 

[JRobber]

Thanks @iacas I was only looking at the left hand! Didn't really consider the right hand grip. I will check it out!

[downbylaw11]

also, i realize changing grips can feel really weird. i remember the first time i used i strong grip it was like wtf am i doing.  i made it more normal by using a strong top hand, and a more neutral to weak bottom hand.  i dunno what the experts have to say about it, as I didn't know much about grips at the time, but it felt like i had a solid connection with the club, and I hit the ball well for a lot of years like that.  when i first understood how to be strong with the bottom hand too, it felt absolutely absurd to me to be able to see actually see the grip through my finger trips because my hand would be wrapped around the underside of the club, which is kinda what youre doing.  but really, the only thing that feels more weird than a new grip, is hitting a dead duck hook time after time, and im not even being sarcastic.  when you hit balls so badly, it feels like youre swinging a frying pan lol

4 minutes ago, JRobber said:

Thanks @iacas I was only looking at the left hand! Didn't really consider the right hand grip. I will check it out!

the bottom hand is supposed to match what the top hand is doing for a particular grip. so if youre netural and both hands are pretty straight down the grip, if you were strong, you would see more knuckles and back of the hand on the top hand, and more palm and finger tips on the bottom hand, and the opposite being true for a weak grip.  google image golf grips and youll get the goods

[JRobber]

Thanks @downbylaw11

i try to be relaxed, but I think you're right I get too tense at times (ie the bad drive). I was consciously trying to relax my arms that day - but guessing it was hit or miss (pardon the pun).

I actually did try just some loose whippet swings and was getting better results, so ya I tend to agree.

i have also tried to forget about this hitting up so much (as I agree top spin has to be one of the main things causing this nose dive ball flight - also assume coupled with closed face could compound the issue)

so yes I will try weaken grip, less tilt, less tension and let the forward ball position promote the 'hitting on the up 'affect.

btw I bought  new 3 wood today (first time with one) and wears striping it 220-240...so I have that to fall back on?

 

[downbylaw11]

yeah, it's always nice to have a 3w that you believe in.  i bought a new one a few weeks ago as well and counted a few of my drives on the course yesterday at about 260.  I'm afraid to hit my driver right now because of some of the problems youre having so i just ditched it and am gradually working my way back up to the driver, but i'm not in a hurry if i hit 3woods 240-260.  i couldnt believe how far I hit that drive because I missed about 10 yards left on a narrow fairway that has water on the left from about 210-250, so off the tee I was like, ah **** I lost that ball, but then walked up and saw this object that mightve been a ball, but i kept walking and figured it was just a leaf or garbage, then got even closer and assured it was a ball....... my ball.  I started looking around all paranoid as if I just got away with murder.  anyways, cool story, 3 woods rule