Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual

[Fourputt]

Just one comment or correction.  The USGA Handicap manual is not part of the Rules of Golf.  

Quote

Rule or Rules

The term "Rule" includes:

a.

The Rules of Golf and their interpretations as contained in "Decisions on the Rules of Golf";

b.

Any Conditions of Competition established by the Committee under Rule 33-1 and Appendix I;

c.

Any Local Rules established by the Committee under Rule 33-8a and Appendix I; and

d.

The specifications on:

(i)

clubs and the ball in Appendices II and III and their interpretations as contained in "A Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls"; and

(ii)

devices and other equipment in Appendix IV.

Any of the provisions in the Handicap manual are really just recommendations on how to establish and apply handicaps.  Decisions on the tees used and handicap adjustment for a given tournament is part of the job of the committee before the tournament, and really has no bearing on the play of the game itself, thus is not a rule in that sense.

[HonestyPolicy]

48 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Just one comment or correction.  The USGA Handicap manual is not part of the Rules of Golf.  

Any of the provisions in the Handicap manual are really just recommendations on how to establish and apply handicaps.  Decisions on the tees used and handicap adjustment for a given tournament is part of the job of the committee before the tournament, and really has no bearing on the play of the game itself, thus is not a rule in that sense.

I see you pulled the definition of the word "Rule or Rules" from the Rules and Decisions Section of the USGA website. I'm not sure why it does not reference the Handicap Manual, maybe because the definition there is within the context of that section only. I found in the Q&A section where it does reference Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual as a "Rule of Golf" that can not be waived. See the link below and the quote I grabbed from it.

https://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=6

Quote:

"Please note that a golf club may not ignore Section 3-5/9-3c when players are competing from a different USGA Course Rating as doing so would be waiving a Rule of Golf. The Committee in charge of a competition does not have the authority to waive a Rule of Golf (see Decision 3-5/2)."

[Fourputt]

2 minutes ago, HonestyPolicy said:

I see you pulled the definition of the word "Rule or Rules" from the Rules and Decisions Section of the USGA website. I'm not sure why it does not reference the Handicap Manual, maybe because the definition there is within the context of that section only. I found in the Q&A section where it does reference Section 3-5 of the USGA Handicap Manual as a "Rule of Golf" that can not be waived. See the link below and the quote I grabbed from it.

https://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=6

Quote:

"Please note that a golf club may not ignore Section 3-5/9-3c when players are competing from a different USGA Course Rating as doing so would be waiving a Rule of Golf. The Committee in charge of a competition does not have the authority to waive a Rule of Golf (see Decision 3-5/2)."

I think that if that provision is employed, it becomes a condition of the competition, and thus it becomes a rule of golf, but only in those specific instances.  It doesn't apply generally to play and thus is not a rule in the majority of competitions.  

[HonestyPolicy]

42 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I think that if that provision is employed, it becomes a condition of the competition, and thus it becomes a rule of golf, but only in those specific instances.  It doesn't apply generally to play and thus is not a rule in the majority of competitions.  

If by provision you mean playing against each other from different tees, then yes you are correct. The committee can have a condition of competition where there is say divisional play by tee box, or some other condition that does not allow competition against each other from different tees, and in so by doing they exclude Section 3-5 from being invoked. But if competition does exist from different tees, then the committee may not waive section 3-5. If basically have to have competition against each other from different tees at our club or we'd have 2-3 people in each division.

I've been a member of about 7 clubs in my lifetime. The only one that has ever had to have competition from different tees is the one I am a member of now.

 

 

[Fourputt]

2 minutes ago, HonestyPolicy said:

If by provision you mean playing against each other from different tees, then yes you are correct. The committee can have a condition of competition where there is say divisional play by tee box, or some other condition that does not allow competition against each other from different tees, and in so by doing they exclude Section 3-5 from being invoked. But if competition does exist from different tees, then the committee may not waive section 3-5. If basically have to have competition against each other from different tees at our club or we'd have 2-3 people in each division.

I've been a member of about 7 clubs in my lifetime. The only one that has ever had to have competition from different tees is the one I am a member of now.

 

 

I don't read it that way.  I don't see anything that says a club must invoke that clause.  There are now, and have been in the past, many clubs with many different way of "equalizing" handicaps.   

I'm keeping in mind that the Rules of Golf are instituted worldwide, while the USGA handicap manual is quite localized within the USA and maybe Mexico... only where the USGA handicap system is used.  There are at least 3 well known handicap systems, and probably more lesser known ones.  Thus a competition in the UK would have no reason to use that section of the manual, and thus it is never a rule of golf there.   

It's that lack of universal implementation that inspires me to debate this with you.  It's a policy that is is used in only a very small percentage of competitions, even in the US, and almost never anywhere else.  It's one reason why I'm sort of looking forward to seeing what the anticipated worldwide handicap system is going to change, and how it is going to be brought in.

[HonestyPolicy]

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I don't read it that way.  I don't see anything that says a club must invoke that clause.  There are now, and have been in the past, many clubs with many different way of "equalizing" handicaps.   

I'm keeping in mind that the Rules of Golf are instituted worldwide, while the USGA handicap manual is quite localized within the USA and maybe Mexico... only where the USGA handicap system is used.  There are at least 3 well known handicap systems, and probably more lesser known ones.  Thus a competition in the UK would have no reason to use that section of the manual, and thus it is never a rule of golf there.   

It's that lack of universal implementation that inspires me to debate this with you.  It's a policy that is is used in only a very small percentage of competitions, even in the US, and almost never anywhere else.  It's one reason why I'm sort of looking forward to seeing what the anticipated worldwide handicap system is going to change, and how it is going to be brought in.

Well I don't know about other systems or other countries and won't pretend to know. I am in the US and we are under the Ghin, USGA system as it stands today. Staying inside that box, there is no other way to read it. " a golf club may not ignore Section 3-5/9-3c when players are competing from a different USGA Course Rating as doing so would be waiving a Rule of Golf." So it is a rule here until as you say universal implementation happens and then we'll see.

To me I asked for advise and I got it. Thanks to everyone who has discussed this. It has helped a great deal not only me but some others I believe. Peace.

"