MEfree

I thought I saw the same thing, but sm guessing that the camera must have cut away before his ball completely came to rest...maybe it was only his back foot in the grate with his ball actually lying a bit in front parallel to where he ended up dropping. Don't know if this was mentioned elsewhere, but I think Stenson's birdie putt on 18 was worth over 1.2 M to him- 3 M for 2nd in FEC vs 2 M for 3rd and at least 200 K more for t2 instead of t4.

The OP is basically a hypothetical. I agree that results matter, but which results are most important? Day has more wins, a lower actual scoring average, a lower scoring average in tournaments both he and Spieth competed in and JD currently leads JS in the FEC. I'd vote for JS today based on his better record in the majors, but might feel differently Sunday evening.

How am I way off base? Did you read what I said in the OP? What you and I said isn't that different except that I assumed playing 1 handed wouldn't do further damage to the injured wrist. [quote name="MEfree" url="/t/84624/would-you-embarrass-yourself-for-200-k#post_1204563"]Would you show up and play in the Tour Championship if it meant you would earn an extra 200 K even if you never broke 100? By not showing up and completing the no cut Tour Championship, Jim Furyk cost himself about 200 K (an estimate of what last place in the Tour Championship will be paid plus extra bonus money he would have gotten with the 164 Fed Ex points 30th place in the TC earns). I completely understand why JF didn't show up with his bum wrist and Rory was recently quoted as saying $10 M doesn't mean much to him at this point, but would you consider playing 1 handed if you were someone like Daniel Berger with about $3 M in career earnings (including 209 K in 21 Web.com events in 2014)?[/quote]

Would you show up and play in the Tour Championship if it meant you would earn an extra 200 K even if you never broke 100? By not showing up and completing the no cut Tour Championship, Jim Furyk cost himself about 200 K (an estimate of what last place in the Tour Championship will be paid plus extra bonus money he would have gotten with the 164 Fed Ex points 30th place in the TC earns). I completely understand why JF didn't show up with his bum wrist and Rory was recently quoted as saying $10 M doesn't mean much to him at this point, but would you consider playing 1 handed if you were someone like Daniel Berger with about $3 M in career earnings (including 209 K in 21 Web.com events in 2014)?

Yes, Spieth had a better major season and he certainly dominated Day at the Masters, but over the last 3 majors, Spieth beat Day by a total of 2 strokes with each taking 1 victory- not exactly in separate leagues. While I don't think anyone is saying that their major seasons are equal, I think Day would be the front runner for POY right now if DJ had made a 12 foot putt on the 72nd hole of the US Open while Spieth was sitting in the clubhouse wondering why he doubled the 71st hole.

Any idea how they do the adjustments to scoring average? Like I pointed out before, Day's scoring ave differential vs the field is better than Spieth's. If you look at the 13 official stroke play events that they both competed in, Day was -102 with a 69.19 scoring ave while Spieth was -78 with a 69.61 scoring average. (Even if you include the unofficial Hero World Challenge Spieth won, Day has the better scoring average in Stroke Play events they both competed in.) It seems that whatever adjustments they made, it certainly favored the rounds Spieth played when Day was not competing or hurt the rounds Day played when Spieth did not tee it up. Day is popular with his fellow competitors. I think it will be hard for him to come back and win again this week, but if he does, I think he will win POY (especially if he takes the official scoring title).

I definitely think the players who vote on POY will give some weight to the scoring average winner, but which scoring average (and how do the Vardon and Nelson do their adjustments)? Currently, Day's actual scoring average is 0.3 ahead of Speith. The fields scoring average is 0.21 higher for Speith than Dan, so Day only leads the scoring ave v field by 0.09 strokes per round (2.3 better than the field for Day vs 2.21 better than the field for Speith). What I don't understand is why Speith has a better adjusted scoring average than Day, considering Day leads in both of the above categories?? Do they do some sort of par computation to get adjusted scoring average?

For the most part, I agree with the first post, BUT I think CONFIDENCE is very important. While the best way to earn confidence is to build on positive results, I think some of the best players in the world are able to con themselves into believing that their game is closer to perfection than it actually is. With that in mind, I am going to say that my short game is close to being good rather than that it has mostly sucked all summer.

I won my 2nd Club Championship 2 weeks ago- 74-69 (par 69). Course played really hard the 1st round with lots of tucked pins and a mid-round storm with some rain and really heavy winds. Thursday, I am in the finals of the match play championship, played at 50% handicap. My opponent is a former shop pro who finished 2nd in the Club Championship and we will be playing even. I beat him most of the season in Men's league, but think he is better at match play than he is at stroke play, so it should be a good match.

I saw there were 17 new posts on the "Lost ball rule is stupid" thread (created by Duff McGee). I had previously posted in this thread, but when I clicked on the link, I got: Insufficient Permissions You do not have permission to view this thread. Please contact a site administrator if you believe this to be in error. Alternately you may return to the The Clubhouse forum Logout and try again with an administrative account, or contact a site administrator for support. How do I look at the new posts? Lost Ball Rule is Stupid started by Duff McGee in Rules of Golf last post by Elmer Today at 7:59 am | 50 replies | 754 views

We have a completely different system in the US than you do here but it is possible for your handicap to go down quickly as we revise 2x month. i.e. I was a 7.7 June 15 and was down to a 3.4 Aug 1. I definitely felt I was a more competitive 5.8 the first part of July than I feel now. With that said, under our system, I know exactly what my handicap is going to be based on the scores I shoot, course rating and slopes of the courses I played. It sounds like your system has some subjectivity to it that our system does not (for the most part). What was the course rating/slope on the par 64?

The article doesn't discourage practicing your full swing and points out that distance is an advantage. For many of us, 100 yards is close to a full swing and the principle of hitting the ball first with solid contact applies just like with all full shots. Things like weight forward, proper shaft lean/flat wrist and a steady head are important on a 100 yard shot just like they are on full swings. For many players, I think it makes sense to work on their full swing mechanics by practicing a lot with short irons.

I agree that DJ is just an average putter by tour standards and also agree that strokes gained putting is the most correlated putting statistic with someone's actual putting abilities. With that said, I don't think SGP is perfect- it only accounts for distance and not the difficulty of the putts you have. Not every 3 foot, 7 foot, or 27 foot putt is created equal. Some players do a better job leaving themselves easier putts. My take-away with Spieth is that the stats seem to confirm he is an intelligent player with no weaknesses- while he is only 40th in GIR, he is 7th in strokes gained with approach shots. This tells me he is either getting it closer than most when he does hit a green and/or, when he does "miss," it is in the right spot more than his competitors. Being on the fringe is technically a missed green, but it is a likely a good shot if you are only 15 feet away from 175 yards..

Agreed. That is one reason I asked him how long it took him to become a 3 HC and how long he remained a 3..

My understanding is that par+ handicap is a guideline or handicap rule, not a rule of golf. [quote name="Big C" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid/18#post_1178968"] I typically don't chime in on these threads because like @Fourputt and others have repeatedly said, there is no practical alternative to the current rule. But to @MEfree 's question above, I had this exact scenario play out yesterday in a men's club tournament. I hit a hybrid into the green from 225 yards, caught it a hair thin and saw it bounce on the back of the green and then disappear. I assumed that it would sitting in the rough behind the green or (worst case scenario) resting against the boundary fence behind the green. When I arrive, I saw that the rough had been shaved down and the bottom of the boundary fence was resting 4 inches off the ground. Just enough room for a ball to sneak underneath and roll onto the street behind. It was a pretty crappy scenario because I was walking the course and I had to retreat 225 yards backwards and replay my approach. Meanwhile, the group behind us was sitting in their carts 200 yards out, no doubt wondering what the hell was taking us so long. I had to swallow my pride, ask to borrow the cart that my FC's were using and begin the drive backwards to my last spot. On the way back, I stopped to offer a brief explanation to the group behind us. I can't speak for how anyone else "felt" about the situation or the minor delay. But were I sitting in their shoes, I would have appreciated that one of my Fellow Competitors made the decision to play by the rules, at the cost of 2 strokes, as opposed to dropping near the fence or making up some other ruling on the spot. [/quote] You were lucky that someone in the group had a cart. Anytime I think I might be near a boundary fence, I hit a provisional unless I can clearly see my ball sitting in bounds. Do you think you would have made a better score had the rules allowed you to drop two club lengths from where you estimated it exited the course with a two stroke penalty? What is impractical about this option?

I 100% agree that most players don't hit enough provisional balls. I hit several my last round and had no lost balls. I've been playing well lately and hitting fewer provisionals, but on some courses I typically average 2+ per round. I have a standby pass at several courses and often get paired with guys I don't know. Sometimes hitting a provisional can be dangerous when they start moving immediately after I hit a shot I should play a provisional for. Yesterday, one of the guys went to the green with only his putter when he was in the bunker thinking my provisional was his ball. You are right that given the current rules, more players should hit provisionals, but what I thought the OP was talking about was an unexpected lost ball. [quote name="Jeremie Boop" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid#post_1178876"]I've gotten in the habit of hitting a provisional if I think there's any chance that I won't find my ball or that it may have found it's way OB... Even so, there is still the odd occasion that a ball will disappear on me when I would have thought it was definitely safe. [/quote] On some courses, this rarely happens, but on other courses, it can happen more often. On several of the courses I play frequently, there are areas where you would almost always find your ball a few years ago, but now are lucky to find it 50% of the time right now due to rain leading to plant/grass growth. Guys who haven't played the course for a while or are unfamiliar with it don't always know they should hit a provisional even if they are in the habit of hitting provisionals. To eliminate the possibility of never having an unexpected lost ball, given my eyesight/difficulty seeing the ball land, I should probably hit a dozen or so provisionals a round (and more after a good rain as balls can be plugged and lost in the fairway). Maybe some view this as practical, but I don't. There are other situations where the ROG have players make estimations. I'm pretty sure 4 putt himself has said that he has taken a drop when he has had an unexpected lost ball. For me, it is usually more penal taking a drop near where I think the ball was lost and adding two shots rather going back to where I hit it from. I don't think golf would be destroyed (or fundamentally changed) by having this option in the rules.

Were you walking or riding? Was there anybody playing behind you? If so, how did they feel about you going back to the tee. What about the guys you were playing with? Did they commend you for following the rules?

What if he lies 5+ and I lost my 2nd shot similar to the OP? Don't you think the rules would be stronger if the official bodies came up with a practical way to handle this situation rather than have each group come up with their own rules? Remember, it is against the rules to agree to waive a rule, so obviously the official bodies like to be in control of things. If you do agree on your own set of rules on the 1st tee, should you post the score for handicap purposes?

There are several who have made it on the PGA Tour and a couple of others who made some $ on the Champions Tour who took up the game later in life- Calvin Peete and Larry Nelson come to mind. I have a friend who got serious about being a pro in his 20s that had a good paying sales job that allowed him to golf every afternoon (and take time off to play tournaments). His game improved a lot and I think he enjoyed the journey, but he never qualified for a PGA Tour event. He's in his 50s now and did cash a small check in the CO Sr Open a few years back. Not only are there a lot of really good golfers who have never played in a PGA Tour event, there are a lot of golfers who have made a cut or two on tour and then never gotten into another event. If you can keep running your gym and work on your game at the same time, I'd say go for it as long as you have the desire. To access your chances of even cashing a few checks on the smaller tours, at the very least, I'd want to know how long/how much playing it took you to get to a 3 HC initially, how long you stayed at a 3 and why you stopped playing.

You don't pick a random place when you hit your ball into a blind hazard- you make your best guess as to where it might have entered and drop there. Sometimes, you will be pretty close to where it actually entered, but depending on the shape of the hazard, your familiarity with the course, your eye-sight, memory, etc. you might actually be quite a ways off the spot it actually crossed, yet you take your penalty and life goes on. You addressed what to do in a casual round, but haven't offered a solution to how to handle this in a competitive round without holding up the golf course (especially if you are walking). Tell us how to do this under the current rules. [quote name="Fourputt" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid#post_1178782"]As Wadesworld says, there is no other way to address it from a rules viewpoint. The practical option in a casual round is to estimate the best spot and drop, giving yourself a 2 stroke penalty to simulate stroke and distance. But that is up to you. In a competition, you go back to the previous spot and play another ball. Most anyone who has ever played much proper competition has had to do this at one time or another. Just part of the game . [/quote] I think this is one (of many) reasons why competitions often take longer to play than casual rounds and makes some courses reluctant to hold competitions (especially for limited fields where they might have casual players behind. Also, not all competitions are necessarily club sanctioned- suppose I am having a friendly match with an acquaintance. Wouldn't it be nice to have a set of rules that allowed us to handle this situation in a practical way?

I'm a lefty (left eye dominant) but my first golf swings were likely with my dad's RH wedge. When I bought my first club around age 9, I got a LH 9i and played LH until I was 17. I felt I had plateaued at close to a 4 HC and switched to the right side for 3 years (as a number of people thought I had a better RH swing) but continued to putt left handed. You could give LH putting a shot and see how you do. Mac O'Grady and a few others have played on tour hitting the ball RH and putting LH. My dad is a righty but has tried putting LH a bit, but seems to go back to the right side after a while. [quote name="Sante TwoGloves" url="/t/83574/lefty-playing-righty-should-i-putt-lefty-or-maybe-cross-handed#post_1178084"]I have been playing with a mixed bag this year. My driver, 3wood, and hybrid are Left handed as are my irons 6 thru sw. I carry a right handed 5 wood and a right handed pw and 7 iron for chipping. I am also right eye dominant and that is why I have been putting and chipping right handed. Seems to be working out[/quote] That's a pretty interesting set, especially the RH 5 W. I sorta get the RH chipping/putting, but what is the RH 5 W for? FWIW, I recall some studies that showed there are a higher % than expected cross eyed dominant baseball hitters in the majors. The thinking was that it is an advantage to have your lead eye (left eye from the right side) being dominant in terms of picking up pitches quicker. Not sure if this means anything as far as golf goes.

True, but don't you think someone like Phil has a better US Open record than Zach, even though neither has won it? I said earlier than Zach's Open win moved him up a notch (and he has a lot to be proud of), but when you are trying to rank someone's career as a whole (and whether they deserve to be in the HOF), I think it is useful to look at more than a couple of tournaments wins. For Zach, his 10 other PGA tour wins are better than some multiple major winners, but with only 12 major top 25s (and none in the US Open), no WGC wins or runner ups, 0 $ list/Fed Ex Cup top 3s and never having a OWGR inside the top 5, his record as a whole is not as good as some multiple major winners. In many ways, I think a win is a win, but when evaluating someone's career as a whole, do you think a run-away major win is more impressive than winning in a playoff?

I agree. In many respects, I think we put too much emphasis on winning majors when evaluating someones career. True, if they consistently have poor showings in majors, this is a definite hole, but there can be a luck element in winning and certain things are beyond a players control. If Dustin Johnson rolls in his 12 footer instead of 3 putting on the 72nd hole at Chambers Bay, then Spieth would have been viewed as blowing that major with his double at 17. Instead, having done nothing different, Spieth becomes a 2x major winner at 21. Similarly, if Zach Johnson's putt on 18 at St Andrews lips out, he misses out on the playoff and is still only a 1 time major winner. Over the course of 2 weeks at John Deere and The Open, Spieth and Zach shot identical scores, with Johnson missing a putt on 18 at Deere to get in the playoff and Spieth having a putt on 18 in Scotland to get into the playoff. They both played really well those two weeks, and each won a playoff, but Zach is the only one to get a major win (while Spieth picked up what Zach calls the 5th major for him). Looking at Zach's career major record, he has definitely taken advantage of the times he has been in contention. While this does point to being a clutch player, it could also mean that he is a bit lucky to have two wins (with fewer than 10 top 10s and 5 top 5s). Tournament 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Masters Tournament DNP CUT T32 1 T20 CUT 42 CUT T32 T35 CUT T9 U.S. Open T48 CUT CUT T45 CUT CUT T77 T30 T41 CUT T40 T72 The Open Championship CUT CUT CUT T20 T51 T47 T76 T16 T9 T6 T47 1 PGA Championship T37 T17 CUT CUT CUT T10 T3 T59 70 T8 T69 Tournament Wins 2nd 3rd Top-5 Top-10 Top-25 Events Cuts made Masters Tournament 1 0 0 1 2 3 11 7 U.S. Open 0 0 0 0 0 0 12 7 The Open Championship 1 0 0 1 3 5 12 9 PGA Championship 0 0 1 1 3 4 11 8 Totals 2 0 1 3 8 12 46 31

I voted bacon strips, but much of the time my divots are wider than that. Overall, I lean more towards usually seeing brown, but do have some pork chops mixed in. Swing variations and turf/lie variations definitely cause my divots to vary somewhat. My last round, I took a really nice pork chop/mini beaver pelt when my ball was sitting deep in a divot (hole). On fairway woods, I tend towards just brushing the grass.