The New Ball Flight Laws Are Right, but Misleading

[dkjestrup]

Hi all,

One thing I'm surprised there is little conversation about online, is that the New Ball Flight Laws (i.e. face sends, path bends), are very misleading. Factually correct, but misleading.

They work well if you're setting up to hit a draw/fade etc. with your set-up. Aim your clubface in your chosen starting direction, choose how much fade/draw you want with your feet/body position, then grip the club and swing like normal.

The problem is, the ball flight laws are outright misleading when it comes to how you dynamically open/close the clubface throughout your swing. Most golfers are opening the clubface on the backswing, and closing it on the downswing. But this opening/closing is not happening relative to your target, it's happening relative to your path.

Imagine that due to your wrist action in your swing, you are closing the clubface in your hands by 5 degrees. This will stay 5 degrees closed, relative to whatever swing path you have. Neutral swing? 5 degrees closed to target, slight pull draw. 10 degrees in-to-out swing? 5 degrees open to target, nice push draw.

Closing or opening the clubface during your swing is already happening relative to path.

This is why when you have someone hitting pull slices, and you have them fix their over the top action, they will start hitting the ball straight or even right of target. They will not suddenly hit pull draws. Despite them pulling it previously and you not touching their clubface. 

A more accurate version of the ball flight laws is this:

Starting direction = Clubface direction relative to target = Path Direction + Clubface direction relative to path.

Spin direction = Clubface direction relative to path (unchanged).

Your out-to-in swing isn't causing your slice, it's causing you to pull it, by redirecting your clubface - which is open relative to your swing path - until it is closed relative to target. Fix the clubface closing in your hands properly first (to hit pulls/pull-draws), and then fix your swing path in order to hit the ball straight.

Edited 7 hours ago by dkjestrup
typo

[iacas]

I disagree.

I "share" the ball flight laws in this form: "the golf ball starts in the general direction of the clubface at impact and curves away from the path."

That describes all you need to know:

• For a pull-slice, the ball starts left (face left of target) and the path is farther to the left.
• For a push-draw, the ball starts right (face right of target) and the path is farther to the right.
• For a push-slice, the ball starts right (face right of target) and the path is farther to the right.

The only clarity is that, for example, Lee Trevino played a push-fade, he just lined up well to the left, so the words "push" and "pull" can sometimes, depending on the context, mean relative to the body alignment.

Your point about the clubface opening and closing throughout the swing is moot. The ball doesn't care whether the face is open or closed to the path at P2 or even P6.9. It cares at P7.

Your "more accurate version" just muddies the water and makes it more confusing, when we know that for almost every full swing club where you're worried about curve… the start line is 75%+ clubface angle. So again: "the golf ball starts in the general direction of the clubface at impact and curves away from the path."

Yes, when I'm working with someone who hits a pull-slice, I often fix the clubface first, because I see their natural reaction to the ball going right to try to subconsciously swing left… but there are times I will teach people to change the path first and tell them to keep doing that and aim left and play a push-fade like Trevino. It comes down to knowing the student, and/or knowing how far off they are.

But that's teaching.

The ball flight laws as we share them are perfectly fine. Sure, as you get to advanced students you start to talk about the rare times the face can be closer to 60% of the starting direction, or you start to talk about the gear effect.

But for 99% of situations, the ball flight laws are fine, and nothing you shared, regardless of the bold text, does anything to convince me otherwise. You're just muddying it up, making a simple sentence that works into a muddier, more complex sentence that doesn't actually give us any benefits.

[dkjestrup]

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I "share" the ball flight laws in this form: "the golf ball starts in the general direction of the clubface at impact and curves away from the path."

I agree, this is correct. I'm not disagreeing that this is how the ball moves.

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our point about the clubface opening and closing throughout the swing is moot. The ball doesn't care whether the face is open or closed to the path at P2 or even P6.9. It cares at P7.

I also agree with this. I don't mean to imply that the movement of the clubface in the grip throughout the swing (i.e the opening/closing) matters, only at impact.

Quote

Your "more accurate version" just muddies the water and makes it more confusing, when we know that for almost every full swing club where you're worried about curve… the start line is 75%+ clubface angle. So again: "the golf ball starts in the general direction of the clubface at impact and curves away from the path."

Yes, the start line is 75% clubface angle at impact. I'm also not disagreeing with this.

What I'm saying though, is that the clubface angle at impact, is created by both the clubface angle in your hands, and the direction of your swing. The clubface angle in your hands moves with your swing - obviously, because your hands are attached to your arms/body. 

To give another example, if you closed the clubface 5 degrees in your hands, then gripped the club. And then you aimed 10 degrees right of target. Your clubface is 5 degrees open to the target at impact, correct?

If you instead grip the club at neutral/0 degrees and aim straight at the target. Throughout your swing you will create a clubface angle relative to your swing path by some combination of wrist movement. If you put a camera on your lead forearm looking at the clubface, you would see this angle. If this is 5 degrees closed, and your swing path is 10 degrees in to out, then your final clubface angle relative to target is still 5 degrees open.

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Yes, when I'm working with someone who hits a pull-slice, I often fix the clubface first, because I see their natural reaction to the ball going right to try to subconsciously swing left

I agree that when it comes to coaching there's an individual part of it for the student. But my argument here is that you're agreeing with me on the root cause. Fixing the clubface - relative to path, which is the angle of the clubface relative to your forearms - fixes the slice, fixing the swing path fixes the pull. And often the pull is caused by someone trying to overcompensate for their slice in the first place.

Edited 3 hours ago by dkjestrup

[iacas]

2 hours ago, dkjestrup said:

What I'm saying though, is that the clubface angle at impact, is created by both the clubface angle in your hands, and the direction of your swing.

You did a poor job of explaining that, then.

But also… so what? I agree that if someone delivers delivers a straight path and a 5° right-pointing face, they're going to start to swing left some amount, and that the face will "travel" with that. Not 1:1, as in if they swing 10° left the face will be 5° left, but it's often not far off from 1:1. The relationship isn't perfectly steady, but it's somewhat steady, generally.

But… so what? That's not the ball flight laws. Those are what they are, and your version simply complicated what can be a pretty simple way of understanding it.

You're talking about instruction, or how you go about fixing a ball flight, not the actual physics itself.

2 hours ago, dkjestrup said:

To give another example, if you closed the clubface 5 degrees in your hands, then gripped the club. And then you aimed 10 degrees right of target. Your clubface is 5 degrees open to the target at impact, correct?

Not necessarily, given that you can do a lot of things in the swing to change that relationship. I get what you're saying, though, I just don't agree that I'd call them the "ball flight laws."

The ball flight laws are not "misleading" at all and you've failed to demonstrate the title of your topic.

2 hours ago, dkjestrup said:

If you instead grip the club at neutral/0 degrees and aim straight at the target. Throughout your swing you will create a clubface angle relative to your swing path by some combination of wrist movement. If you put a camera on your lead forearm looking at the clubface, you would see this angle. If this is 5 degrees closed, and your swing path is 10 degrees in to out, then your final clubface angle relative to target is still 5 degrees open.

Let's stipulate that we're all capable of doing basic math. 😄 

2 hours ago, dkjestrup said:

I agree that when it comes to coaching there's an individual part of it for the student. But my argument here is that you're agreeing with me on the root cause. Fixing the clubface - relative to path, which is the angle of the clubface relative to your forearms - fixes the slice, fixing the swing path fixes the pull. And often the pull is caused by someone trying to overcompensate for their slice in the first place.

That's why I said this just above:

But… so what? That's not the ball flight laws. Those are what they are, and your version simply complicated what can be a pretty simple way of understanding it.

You're talking about instruction, or how you go about fixing a ball flight, not the actual physics itself.

And… I disagree that "fixing the face" first isn't always the way to go. It might be most of the time, but it's not over 80% if I had to put a number on it.

There's nothing wrong with the "ball flight laws" and I try to, at some point, make sure every student is aware of it, as well as being aware of their clubface and their start lines, as that's a big part of self-solving some things when they arise. "Coach, I'm missing everything right." "Okay, what's the start line?" Big question, and the answer changes quite a bit based on the response. Sometimes it's the face (most of the time, probably), but sometimes it's a path change, particularly as players get better.