Rules question re. movable obstruction

[blue3715]

ok, i stand corrected, any man made course marker should be tested for moveability... i shudder to think how a ranger would react at a public course when someone heaves the 150 yard pole out of the middle of the fairway. Ive seen many of those and I don't think they are meant to be moved, at least where I've played. I'll have to check next time I see one.

p.s. whenever my mom moves a stake she can't get it back into the ground!

[iacas]

ok, i stand corrected, any man made course marker should be tested for moveability... i shudder to think how a ranger would react at a public course when someone heaves the 150 yard pole out of the middle of the fairway. Ive seen many of those and I don't think they are meant to be moved, at least where I've played. I'll have to check next time I see one.

Eh? You just give it a wiggle and see if it'll pull out. Again, most are just a PVC pipe either sitting over a pole or sitting in a tube or sleeve. If it doesn't come out "easily" or isn't movable in a "reasonable" amount of time, it's immovable.

But you have to make the determination, yeah.

[blue3715]

well, unless its a tourney situation, i would just move the ball. where i play the 150 poles, if any, are usually in the side rough, or not at all.

[sacm3bill]

well, unless its a tourney situation, i would just move the ball. where i play the 150 poles, if any, are usually in the side rough, or not at all.

Not to sound snide or anything, but most of us want to play by the rules all the time, not just in tournaments.

[pom]

To make it more confusing, Your club may make a local rule making all of these markers immovable obsstructions. So the first thing to do is check the local rule board. Furthermore if you handed in your card without the penalties taken you should be Disqualified. My advice to all club golfers is to read through the decisions of golf book. It is available at many public libraries & also on the internet at R&a; rules Or USPGA rules. This is a GREAT game isn,t it

[sacm3bill]

Furthermore if you handed in your card without the penalties taken you should be Disqualified.

It was a casual round. Technically I should prob ask to have my posted score increased by 2 strokes, but it was already so high it will never be used for my handicap (not a top 10 of my last 20). I agree, if it happened in a tournament I should have been disqualified, but in tourneys I'm always careful to get rulings/consent from my playing partners before doing any moving or dropping of the ball.

My advice to all club golfers is to read through the decisions of golf book. It is available at many public libraries & also on the internet at R&a; rules Or USPGA rules.

Agreed. I am a rules junkie and have read through the rules and decisions several times. The ruling is pretty clear in regard to the penalties for moving the ball when there is no immovable obstruction to warrant it. The point of this thread however was to get consensus as to what is necessary to deem an obstruction movable or not. I think we've accomplished that. Thanks for all the replies.

- Bill

[blue3715]

Not to sound snide or anything, but most of us want to play by the rules all the time, not just in tournaments.

Let's not get overzealous on the rules here... in a casual round, and your shot is right in the middle of the fwy, 150 yds from the green.. what effect will you have on moving the ball 3 feet?

If the pole is in a sleeve, then by all means pull it out.. if not, then take a drop. i think we killed this topic.

[iacas]

Let's not get overzealous on the rules here... in a casual round, and your shot is right in the middle of the fwy, 150 yds from the green.. what effect will you have on moving the ball 3 feet?

I think some people simply realize that "moving the ball three feet" in a casual round is like "gateway cheating." It helps you rationalize later ones. Slippery slope. Soon you're doing more and more, and cheating - even if it's small - becomes a habit.

[blue3715]

of course im only referring to the situation of an obstruction. Not giving your ball a free kick (ala Caddy Shack)

[Fourputt]

I didn't thoroughly read every post in this thread, but there seemed to be some misconceptions. If an obstruction is easily movable, then it must be moved rather than taking relief by dropping the ball. If you do take relief from an immovable obstruction, the ball must be dropped, not placed. You do NOT get line of sight/play relief from an immovable obstruction unless the ball lies on the putting green.

Back to the original question - When the player lifted ball to take relief from a movable obstruction, he incurred a one stroke penalty for lifting the ball when it isn't allowed. When he placed it, it was still part of the original error, and was still correctable if he replaced it in its original lie. When he did not replace it, and played a stroke, he played from a wrong place, and incurred a further 2 stroke penalty for that error, but he must play out the hole with that ball. In this case it is not a serious breach, and would not have the potential for disqualification.

The only thing that I'm a bit hazy on is whether it is a total of 2 strokes or if the one stroke penalty is also applied. I think that the one stroke is superseded by the 2 strokes and the total penalty is just 2 strokes. There are several place in the rules where this can happen, and usually the 2 stroke penalty is applied and the one stroke penalty is ignored. It is the one area that I was still a bit foggy about after my 4 day rules seminar this spring.

My ruling here would be that the improper lifting and placing resulted ultimately in playing from a wrong place, so the only penalty applied is the 2 strokes for breach of Rule 20-7.

[sacm3bill]

Rick, I don't blame you for not reading all the posts, but wanted to point out that my original question was either not well stated or effectively obscured by some folks misreading it. To quote myself from a few posts ago:

The ruling is pretty clear in regard to the penalties for moving the ball when there is no immovable obstruction to warrant it. The point of this thread however was to get consensus as to what is necessary to deem an obstruction movable or not. I think we've accomplished that.

So the actual question I was trying to ask is, what would be the ruling if an object appeared immovable at first glance and the ball dropped accordingly, but was later found to actually be movable. Most seem to think the responsibility lies on the golfer to make as accurate a determination as possible, not just give the object a quick glance and assume. I agree. Anyway, just wanted to clarify what the actual issue was, in case you had further comments a result.

Or, we could just close this thread since it's been pretty well beat to death. - Bill

[Fourputt]

Rick, I don't blame you for not reading all the posts, but wanted to point out that my original question was either not well stated or effectively obscured by some folks misreading it. To quote myself from a few posts ago:

The other point to this discussion is when a player thinks that the obstruction is movable, when in reality it is not. The case in mind is a staked sapling, where the player is under the impression that the stakes are movable obstructions. I know from personal experience that most courses don't want those stakes moved, because that loosens them and they no longer perform the function for which they were put there in the first place, i.e. to hold up the tree until its roots are strong enough to do so on their own. But in this case, removing an immovable obstruction is penalized the same as not moving a movable one. It's a good idea to maybe get some clarification from the course staff if you are playing a round that has some significance where playing strictly by the rules is an issue.

From the Definitions section of the Rules of Golf:

Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule declaring a movable obstruction to be an immovable obstruction.

The committee can be either the committee in charge of a competition, or the course staff.

[towerman]

I would like to add one piece of information concerning moveable obstructions.  A moveable obstruction is defined as an obstruction that can be easily removed and replaced.  I have had experiences where I have pulled a 150 yard marker and for some reason was not able to replace the marker back in the hole.  As etiquette to the players playing behind me, I never move a moveable obstruction unless I am sure I can replace it.