A few rules ticklers

[MrSandman]

Actually, Cabrera only hit 2 balls Out of Bounds, but then hit his 5th shot in the water (as each OB was a stroke and penalty), then chipped on and two putted for a crowd pleasing 10.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/20195743/site/21683474/

U.S. Open champion Angel Cabrera was at even par until he hit two balls out-of-bounds, one in the water and took three putts from 30 feet for a 10 on the par-3 sixth hole, sending him to an 81, his worst score in a major championship.

[JaY_B]

Just so you guys know, I would rather you was right and I was wrong, and also please remember I have actually done some research in to the topic and proof has come up inconclusive, I don't want abuse because I said some thing that some people might not agree with.

[Fourputt]

"If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original provisional ball"

Read your quoted sentence. It says exactly what I did in my previous post. The second provisional bears the same relationship to the first provisional as the first one does to the original ball. That means that if the first provisional was played with your 3rd stroke (lying 3), then the second provisional would be stroke and distance more, i.e. 2 strokes or lying 5 if it becomes the ball in play. If a third provisional is played, then it lies 7 in relation to the original ball, or stroke and distance in relation to the second provisional (5 plus 2 more = 7. I hope that makes it more clear to you. The rules just don't give you a free pass.

If the rule was meant as you say, it would be stated that additional strokes with subsequent balls are not counted until you get a ball in play on the course. The rules do not give such latitude. You have to be assessed for each stroke made in an attempt to put a ball in play, even if those strokes are made at balls which are subsequently found to be out of bounds. The only times I can think of under the rules where such strokes do not count are when they are made with a provisional ball which is later abandoned for the original (or for a provisional ball played earlier), or they are made at a wrong ball and the error is corrected. Your theory would be correct only if some of those additional OB balls are abandoned because you find one of the previously played balls in bounds. Most myths about the rules grow just due to this sort of misinformation being spread by someone who is positive in their correctness, even though that faith is not supported by the rules. If I were you, I'd talk to the guy who told you this and show him the rule, as well as my explanation. Just FYI, I've attended a couple of 4 day USGA Rules seminars (including one this past March), as well as served as the rules chairman on my Men's Club board of directors. I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but in case this I'm quite certain. I just believe that you and your friend are misreading that quoted statement, which is disturbingly easy to do.

[JaY_B]

Read your quoted sentence. It says exactly what I did in my previous post.

That's what I always thought, I decided to actually look in too the subject because it sounded suspect, yet also viable if even a little ridiculous. And I agree about the myths, to be honest I think in a way I fell for some one who was positive in their incorrectness. The reason I did question the ruling was because the original source of the information was reputable.

[MrSandman]

Jay B, no belittling, just golf talk.

The research is not inconclusive:
"If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original provisional ball "

So your first provisional (B) was stroke + distance from the original ball (A).
And now your second provisional (C) bears the same relationship to the first provisional (B), that the first provisional (B) had to the original ball (A).

So A was shot 1.
B was shot A + penalty Stroke (so third shot)
And C bears same relationship to B as B had with A, so it is B + penalty Stroke (so 5th shot)

The above quote is incorrect, as it states provisional at the end. 27-2 A actually states:
Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

[JaY_B]

Jay B, no belittling, just golf talk.

Sorry, typo. It was meant to say "bears to the original ball" not "bears to the original provisional ball".

Just had too many thoughts in my head while typing me thinks

[MrSandman]

Sorry, typo. It was meant to say "bears to the original ball" not "bears to the original provisional ball".

Funny how one word can change an entire meaning in a rules book. Had the "provisional" been in the rule as you had written it, then a case could be made that your stance is correct (although it would be a very vague argument). However, since it says "as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball" it is very clear that the second provisional ball comes with penalties on top of the first provisional ball (just as the first provisional ball comes with penalties on top of the original shot).

[RemyM]

However, I cannot think of too many situations where it is preferred to play the provisional and not find your original tee shot.

Phil Mickelson was in a playoff with someone else (can't remember who), the other guy hit his ball left into a ravine where it most likely is lost. Mickelson then hits his shot into the same place. They both play provisional balls and Phil hits his down the middle of the fairway. As they walk up to play their next shots Phil tells his caddie not to look for the original ball as he would rather play the provisional. Before Phil can hit his provisional, which would have made it his ball in play, a spectator or marshal finds his original ball down in the ravine which means that Phil now has to abandon his provisional ball in the middle of the fairway and play with the original ball. He is all pissed that they found his original ball because it is in an unplayable situation and his only relief is stroke and distance so he has to walk back to the tee and hope he can hit that one in the fairway. He did, but that was a situation where you would have preferred not to find the original ball. They both went on to double bogey the hole and the playoff continued.

[RemyM]

I was a bit off on some of my facts above. I found the story about what really happened.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all
It was at Torrey Pines in 2001.

I even found video of it on the USGA website.
http://www.usga.org/QUESTIONS/FAQS/r...dx=137&Rule;=28

[blue3715]

Had a match play at the wknd and just got over the line in front but it should have been a lot easier as there were a few things I wasn't 100% sure of that my opponent did so I kept my mouth shut.

The provisional allows you not to have to walk back to the tee.. you are supposed to declare a ball as provisional.. but usually this is implied when the player usually says "let me hit another, just in case"... it's best for you to ask the player if they are hitting a provisional when they re-tee it up.

Since he didn't look for the other ball the first one is considered lost once once he took a swing at the provisional. He lies 3 in the fairway. You should have made him look for it first as it was indeed in bounds. Again you should ask him if he's declaring the first ball lost when he took a club out to hit the 2nd ball.

2nd He hit 3 consectutive tee shots into trees in almost exact same place. We went up and he found his "first" ball and played it. Now I'm thinking, how does he know that's his first ball? Should he not have played a different type ball for his 2nd or 3rd tee shot and told me first what each ball is to avoid any confusion?

Once he hit his 3rd shot, that becomes the provisional for the 2nd ball, the first one is then declared lost. He needs to find his 2nd or 3rd ball, which lies 3 or 5 depending which ball he finds. Again, to be safe, when he tees up a 3rd ball you should confirm that he's declaring the first one lost. Not knowing which was his provisional ball, I believe the rules allow him to assume the one he found was his provisional, hence he lies 3.

On another occasion, from the trees, his ball happened to come to rest on a nice mound of grass, pretty sure if I had bothered to go over with him for that one first the ball might not have been so favourly positioned.

By not knowing the rules.

Provisional balls are not allowed unless there's a reasonable assumption that the ball is lost.

[MrSandman]

Since he didn't look for the other ball the first one is considered lost once once he took a swing at the provisional. He lies 3 in the fairway. You should have made him look for it first as it was indeed in bounds. Again you should ask him if he's declaring the first ball lost when he took a club out to hit the 2nd ball.

As has been discussed in this thread, that is false.

If you hit your first shot 250 yds, but might be in trouble, then you declare a provisional and roll it 100 yards, you may play your next shot on the provisional ball prior to looking for your original tee shot. And if you duff it another 50 yards, you can play your 3rd shot on the provisional, etc...., until you reach the spot where your original ball is likely located. Also note: The player may play his provisional ball up until the point where the ball is LIKELY to be, not where it actually lands. So you hit a tee shot that is likely to be 300 yards to the right, where there is woods, probably 130 yds from the hole. You then hit your second shot 250 yds, down the middle, probably 150 yds from the hole. You are entitled to hit your second on the provisional before looking for the original tee shot. Now say you find your original tee shot, and it hit a tree and bounced back, and is 200 yards from the hole. Does that mean that your provisional is now in play? NO You are allowed to play your provisional up the point where the ball is likely to be, not where it ultimately ended up. If, from the tee, you felt that the ball was likely to be 130 yds from the hole, you were entitled to play the provisional from 150 yds, even if your original tee shot ultimately ended up being 200 yds from the hole.

[iacas]

The provisional allows you not to have to walk back to the tee.. you are supposed to declare a ball as provisional.. but usually this is implied when the player usually says "let me hit another, just in case"... it's best for you to ask the player if they are hitting a provisional when they re-tee it up.

Right. It's best to ask, because a player hitting again from the tee could be doing a number of things. For example, if there's a yellow hazard and he hits a ball because his first might be lost, but it's later found to be in the hazard, he can't say "yeah, I was hitting that provisional in case it was in the hazard." He hit it in case it was lost. It's not lost anymore when you find it somewhere.

So yes, it's always best to be clear about your intentions, and to be clear about the intentions of others too.

Since he didn't look for the other ball the first one is considered lost once once he took a swing at the provisional.

That's not entirely true.

Today I had a kid hit his ball way left into the woods. He hit a provisional, and duffed it off the tee. I told him to hit up again, because strokes made at a provisional BEHIND the likely position of the possibly lost ball don't put the provisional ball "in play" automatically. The kid hit a great next shot, onto the green from 250 away on the par four. He could have tapped in for a five. Instead, I found his ball well within five minutes, and he was forced to play that ball and abandon his previous ball. He could not declare the ball unplayable and use his provisional, because that was played in case the ball was lost. I found it, so it wasn't lost. He decided to try to hit out of the woods, took four to get out, two more to get onto the green, and two-putted, making a nine. He of course had the option to declare his ball unplayable and go back to the tee and hope for a repeat performance (or at least to make a six or something).

Again you should ask him if he's declaring the first ball lost when he took a club out to hit the 2nd ball.

A player cannot declare his ball "lost." A player is the sole determiner of whether his ball is unplayable, but "lost" is a matter of fact. If I or anyone else finds someone's golf ball within five minutes of looking, it ain't lost.

If you hit your first shot 250 yds, but might be in trouble, then you declare a provisional and roll it 100 yards, you may play your next shot on the provisional ball prior to looking for your original tee shot. And if you duff it another 50 yards, you can play your 3rd shot on the provisional, etc...., until you reach the spot where your original ball is likely located.

Indeed - that's just what happened in the scenario I described above. Only shots taken on a provisional ball BEYOND the point at which the original ball is likely lost basically make the provisional ball the "in play" ball, and players should make all due effort to find their golf balls, as saying "I'm not going to look for it" is unethical and poor.

Remember in Big Break where Don tried to command the other team not to look for his team's lost ball after he knocked a 5-wood to two feet? They found it, and Don's team had to play it from under the bush. Had Don's team rushed ahead and played the stroke on the green, they'd be perhaps deemed to have grossly abused the rules and could be DQed by the committee. Plus, in match play, their stroke would be canceled anyway because they'd have played out of turn. Trying to get by with such things is not in the spirit of the rules.

[Fourputt]

You are wrong here too. You have a rather odd notion of what a provisional ball represents. Just hitting a second provisional does not automatically make the original ball lost. All the second provisional ball does is cover you if you may have also hit the first provisional in a bad place. You are only declaring that the first provisional

may be lost, thus if both the original ball AND the first provisional ball do end up being lost or out of bounds, then the second provisional ball becomes the ball in play. You could conceivably play 4 or 5 provisional balls if you were playing in a tournament and having a really, really bad day. If you then found the original ball in bounds, it is still the ball in play and all of the provisional balls would be abandoned.

[blue3715]

A player cannot declare his ball "lost." A player is the sole determiner of whether his ball is unplayable, but "lost" is a matter of fact. If I or anyone else finds someone's golf ball within five minutes of looking, it ain't lost.

By default it is LOST if he doesn't say anything...

Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost. 27.2.a. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball. <-- I guess this allows for the first ball to be found. I assumed otherwise. I'll try to find more info on this but I now believe I was wrong. 27.2.b. The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. <-- ok I stand corrected

Today I had a kid hit his ball way left into the woods. He hit a provisional, and duffed it off the tee. I told him to hit up again

Rule 10-3. The player MUST wait until everyone else hits, then hit his provisional. If he hits right away he must rehit it... 10-3. Provisional Ball or Another Ball from Teeing Ground If a player plays a provisional ball or another ball from the teeing ground, he must do so after his opponent or fellow-competitor has made his first stroke. If more than one player elects to play a provisional ball or is required to play another ball from the teeing ground, the original order of play must be retained. If a player plays a provisional ball or another ball out of turn, Rule 10-1c or 10-2c applies. Some good discussion on provisionals, learned a rule or two I didn't know. Thanks!

[Fourputt]

By default it is LOST if he doesn't say anything...

Just a clarification here... As Eric said you can't "declare" a ball to be lost. By playing a second ball without designating it as a provisional ball you are taking an

action which by default makes the original ball lost. As far as I can recall offhand, the only declaration mentioned in the rules is to declare your ball unplayable. A ball only becomes "lost" if you search for 5 minutes and fail to find it, or you take some action under a rule that causes another ball to become the ball in play.

[iacas]

By default it is LOST if he doesn't say anything...

Just a clarification here... As Eric said you can't "declare" a ball to be lost. By playing a second ball without designating it as a provisional ball you are taking an

Right. You can't "declare" it lost. By hitting another ball without saying "this is a provisional," I guess it's semantics whether you want to call it lost or unplayable - you're taking the stroke-and-distance option on an unplayable or the standard penalty on lost. Same thing and, again, semantics.

[Fourputt]

Right. You can't "declare" it lost. By hitting another ball without saying "this is a provisional," I guess it's semantics whether you want to call it lost or unplayable - you're taking the stroke-and-distance option on an unplayable or the standard penalty on lost. Same thing and, again, semantics.

Note that in Rule 27-2a and 27-2b, if either of those procedures in the provisional ball rule are violated the original ball is always deemed to be

lost . That is how the rules see it. Nothing about it being a stroke and distance option for an unplayable lie. As I read it, a ball is only unplayable once it has been declared so by the player. With the same idea, if a player plays a provisional ball when it there is no reason to suspect that the original ball is lost, what is the ruling? Since he has played a second ball when he already had a ball clearly in play, is the second ball a wrong ball ? Is the second ball abandoned and play continued with the original plus a 2 stroke penalty? Or is the second ball now the ball in play under stroke and distance even though he didn't declare the original ball to be unplayable? I know that if you think that your ball is stuck in a tree, and you shake the tree to dislodge it without first declaring it unplayable, you incur the one stroke penalty for causing your ball at rest to move. In that case you wouldn't have to replace the ball before continuing as your intent was to proceed under Rule 28 anyway, but you still have to assess the additional stroke. After writing all that, I found the pertinent decision... 27-2a/3.

[iacas]

Note that in Rule 27-2a and 27-2b, if either of those procedures in the provisional ball rule are violated the original ball is always deemed to be

Yeah, semantics.

You lay three.

With the same idea, if a player plays a provisional ball when it there is no reason to suspect that the original ball is lost, what is the ruling?

After writing all that, I found the pertinent decision...

If the decision hadn't existed, I would suspect you could have always gotten the player on the rule that prohibits hitting practice shots. Same penalty, but you'd be playing the second ball with the Decision, and the first ball if you went the "practice" route, so it's not the same outcome.

Of course, "reasonable" is up to the competitors and, occasionally, the committee. If you can SEE the player's ball, and you tell the player prior to his stroke, it's obviously "reasonable" that his ball is not lost Or if he hits it into a wide open area with no trees, it's reasonable again that it's not lost. But otherwise, the committee always gives the player the benefit of the doubt. If he consistently does it during a round, they could DQ him or call them "practice" and penalize him after the fact (I am guessing - it's not like he can play the "second" ball since he would have picked it up every time).