I admit it: I am a fan of slow play...

[Craig Mac]

Craig Mac-

I hear what you are saying(or typing rather

), it just seemed to me he was better trying to explain his opinion. I definitely think extra shots and such(long preshot routine), aren't a good idea if the pace is slow, and I am not trying to take sides at all. One of my buddies, I feel, is very slow when it comes to putting, but he makes an awful lot of putts and shots in the 70's just about everytime. So I can't really complain about his pace, I have just gotten use to it by now. I guess what I am saying is just be glad you don't have to play behind iWalk or you might find yourself tempted to hit one of those "hurry the hell up" shots in to him .

[iWALK18]

iWalk-

I understand that I wont be convincing you or anyone else to even consider thinking of this issue the way I tried to get you to think of it. Thats fine, I wont change the world on the thesandtrap.com message boards.

As far as opening my mind: I opened the thread to find out what people thought... sounds pretty open to me. You seem to think that I am not open simply because I wont cave to views I STILL see as incorrect or incomplete. I don't know how you can say i've been changing my viewpoint. In my most recent post I quoted the very first post I had in this thread. Perhaps my second post was an attempt to reconcile some of the issues you (longshanks) had with the beginning, but I don't see myself as having flip-flopped. You want me to consider the views of everyone who disagrees with me, but when i do you say I've been changing my view to try to get someone to agree with me. There is no winning for me in this respect... damned if i do damned if i don't. I never expected people to agree with me. If you see me as egotistical or angry it is because I am dissapointed by some of the responses I recieved. I was hoping everyone who responded would actually read and consider what I wrote, instead of misquoting me, misrepresenting my position, levying personal judgments on me for expressing an opinion which i may or may not have actually held. You (longshanks) have been a large contributer to the discussion, but you are guilty of every one of the above in the past, and your last post again took it to me personally, which is not a part of this conversation. Me being a nice person is not up for discussion, nor is my age, my ego, or anything else concerning me personally. I want to talk about my ideas. If you don't like this discussion, you should stop reading. I started it so I'm clearly intent on discussing this issue.

[Harry Longshanks]

I understand that I wont be convincing you or anyone else to even consider

And with that one post, you have proven everything I said.

• Victim mentality.
• Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
• I am right.
• You don't understand me.
• You just don't understand what I am saying.
• If you really listen to me, you will agree with me.

That is not a discussion, it is a rant. You are unhappy with anyone who does not agree with you completely. You did not even attempt to digest the substance of what I offered, which was that maybe you should consider the possibility that you are incorrect in your beliefs. That is the definition of arrogance and, as you are young, it is youthful arrogance. I certainly hope you will grow out of it. And as such, I see no reason why I, or anyone else should facilitate you. You want a cheering section, not a discussion. And so I will not participate any longer.

[joshtpa]

Harry hit the nail right on the head.

[whip_it_out]

. You did not even attempt to digest the substance of what I offered, which was that maybe you should consider the

I don't think you can have an incorrect belief. A belief, to be very frank, is what you believe in. It is not a wrong or right.

Had to point that out, and I see very good points on both sides of the argument, which really has turned into an argument between "beliefs" and who is right.

[Lefty731PM]

Harry Longshanks wrote:
"A few minutes per hole really adds up. Think of it this way, if you cut 90 seconds off per hole, you've just finished a 4 hour round instead of a 5 hour round. "

Interesting mathematics there, Harry. Like when a round that consists of 18 x 4s adds up to 61.

[whip_it_out]

Yeah, taking you were about 33 minutes off, Harry.

[Harry Longshanks]

I don't think you can have an incorrect belief. A belief, to be very frank, is what you believe in. It is not a wrong or right.

Sure a belief can be wrong. For example, if I believed that I could power my car with sugar water instead of gas, that would not be an incorrect belief and I would have to replace my engine.

Interesting mathematics there, Harry. Like when a round that consists of 18 x 4s adds up to 61.

Yeah, taking you were about 33 minutes off, Harry.

Or, to use a different example, my belief that I could perform simple math without a calculator and come up with correct figures . . . was

wrong .

[tennis transfer]

A lot of courses have a "Pace of Play" sign or something along those lines. I think as long as you're under 4 hours 15 minutes at most places I think you're alright. But you should do your best to move the game along. Don't rush, but don't waste time either.

And if someone else is playing faster than you are, let them play through. If you have to let more than one or two groups play through, the problem is with you, not them.

[Billiam]

Didn't you say you were going to leave Harry? You're a lying troll I guess... don't know how that compares to me being a sarcastic troll though, I guess lying is much better than me being sarcastic in your opinion.

[Harry Longshanks]

Didn't you say you were going to leave Harry? You're a lying troll I guess... don't know how that compares to me being a sarcastic troll though, I guess lying is much better than me being sarcastic in your opinion.

What is

WRONG with you? And no, what I said was that I wouldn't participate in a one-sided discussion with the OP. I must have neglected to put you on my Ignored User list. But I will rectify that oversight right now.

[doublesuited77]

a couple points that I am surprised noone has made in the past 7 pages.

1) Public golf courses are in the business of making money. The more people that play each day, the more money they make. The faster the pace of play, the less time they need to make between tee times. The difference between a 4 hour round and a 5 hour round can cost a golf course 10-12 tee times or 40-48 greens fees per day.

2) Because of #1 and that fact that assistant golf pros don't want to upset members, the slow play problem is MUCH worse at most private courses than at mid to higher priced public ones. (I will ignore munis where 30% of golfers can't break 200.) Luckily, many courses have fully empowered marshalls to enforce "time par" and move anyone who is behind into position to keep the round on time.

[Harry Longshanks]

a couple points that I am surprised noone has made in the past 7 pages.

Good points DS77. I touched on the issue earlier when I mentioned that tee times are crammed too close together, but you expanded on it well (and your math skills are better than mine.)

By cramming tee times too close, the courses are guaranteeing problems - like putting too many cars on the road at the same time, there is just no margin for error. One little slow down, which in lighter traffic would have no effect, causes the "compression" effect mentioned by another poster here (sorry dude/dudette - I would give credit if I remembered where I read that!). It ripples and is magnified. We have a local course that uses 10 minute tee time spacing. Back ups are rare. Go figure.

[iacas]

I got the vibe reading his posts(iWalk), that he prefers a slower pace, not necessarily playing slow(all though his header says "I am a fan of slow play"), but enjoying his time on the course. Also, I did read that he said(several times) he doesn't hold anyone up.

Consider these two situations.

Situation 1: The course is loaded with foursomes. I'm on the course, and on every green, I look ahead to the next tee and practice putt until just before it's my turn to hit. When I can leave the green, walk onto the tee, and hit right away, I leave the green and tee off immediately. In the fairways, I take two minutes to hit when it's my turn, but walk quickly to the green. Situation 2: The course is loaded with foursomes again. I'm playing, and I walk to the next tee after everyone in the group putts out and wait there until it's my turn to hit. I hit in the fairway within 20 seconds of my turn to play and walk at a normal pace up to the green. In both situations, I'll finish the round in 4:30. Regardless, which of you would rather be in the group immediately behind me in situation 1? How about situation 2? The point remains that you must be consider to those around you. You started this thread controversially by saying "3 hours" when "reasonable pace of play" people rarely go below four hours in their suggestions. Frankly, I hope you're never in the group ahead of me. I like playing golf - that's why I'm out there several times per week - but I don't need to spend five hours per round when I can spend four. If I want to do nothing but appreciate the beauty of a piece of land, I'll take my camera, not hold up golfers. I think Harry's made a lot of sense in this thread, and unfortunately iWALK, you're coming across as just a titch selfish. You are revising what you said, right from the "3 hours" line of BS onward. And getting back to my "situations," whether you like it or not, perception matters. If people perceive you to be a slow player, even if you finish the round at the same pace as everyone else, you're probably slow. And what about the guys in your foursome? Do they appreciate you taking forever to hit your approaches (they can't walk ahead of you and have to wait) or you practice putting (again, they either have to wait or do without your company). You're expected to wait on the tees or for people to leave greens. You're not expected to hold people up unnecessarily, even if they're just going to wait again later.

[joshtpa]

Perception is the biggest thing. Why would someone want to watch a player practice putt. Putt your ball and get back to waiting like the rest of us.

[tjy355]

Thank you for taking the time to pose a list of meaningful and valid counterpoints. let me try to reply to them.

5 hours may be acceptable in your mind... but fact is, that's too slow. You want to play slowly AND you don't want any crap from the group behind you ? It's a bit like the guy that drives 45 mph in the fast lane of the freeway and wonders why people honk and give him the finger. If you find that people are actually telling you to "hit the effin ball!" that's a sure sign that your pace is creating an extreme level of frustration. You haven't found too many that agree with you here on this forum. I'm certain most golf course managers don't agree with you. And it seems that you have encountered other golfers out on the course that don't agree with you... HELLO? Cut to the studio where the TV show FAMILY FUED is being taped: Richard Dawson says "A poll of 100 members of our studio audience was asked 'how long should a round of golf take?' Top five answers are on the board... what is your answer?" iWALK18: "uhh... FIVE?" "ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!"