LPGA to require English proficiency

[iacas]

An employer cannot have a requirement with a disparate impact on a protected class unless the employer demonstrates it is necessary for the job.

Regardless, I still don't think the LPGA is in any way an "employer." The players - they themselves - elected a commissioner to run the LPGA on their behalf. The commissioner is not their "boss" - quite the opposite.

Simply put: if enough Koreans didn't want this policy in place, they'd fire Bivens and bring in a commissioner they liked. That doesn't sound much like an employee/employer relationship (not players below Bivens, I mean), does it? And I think the Koreans would object to being called "protected class."

The LPGA would then have to demonstrate that being blond was a necessary component of the job.

Since I've heard the change came from sponsors, I think it will be fairly easy to prove that it's a true "necessary component" of the job that they speak at least a little "golf-related" English.

And they have until NEXT FALL, and new members have TWO YEARS before they can even be tested. This isn't a difficult thing to do, I don't think. I went to France after two years of study and got around just fine (and I didn't really pay all that much attention in class). The more I think about this, the more I like it. The Korean players all seem fine with it, too. There are some questions, of course - just because a Korean player can speak English doesn't mean it'll change how she behaves to her pro-am partners, after all, and there's no way to really FORCE that much - but I think in the long run this will be a good policy for the players AND the fans.

[gbk56]

I didin't know they are "employees", I always consider them basically, private contractors . . . .they play for prize money from the LPGA, not a salary. They get their salaries from sponsors. They apply for MEMBERSHIP. So, I stand by what I said before. And anyway, it's not where they are from that's the issue, it's that they can't speak English that is the issue. That has nothing to do with where they are born. PLENTY of foreign countries have english language as part of their curriculum, so they should have at least been exposed to it a long time ago.

Nice! I understand your argument, but I believe the PGA was held to be subject to Title VII in the case with the disabled golfer. Therefore I think the LPGA will also be subject to Title VII.

Further, a lot of states have even more stringent standards than title vii which could hamper the LPGAs ability to have tournaments in certain states. I think the LPGA if they proceed with this are opening themselves up to a very messy situation from a PR standpoint. It probably would have been better for them to make it mandatory for all members to take English classes until they passed a test. It accomplishes the same thing without being too overbearing. Suspension is a little drastic, even SeRi Park said as much.

[Smallville]

This is the first time anyone has brought up something that makes me go hmmmm . . . I forgot about Casey Martin. I know they had to at first, but seeing how it's never happened since, and he was what, maybe just one year, did it get overruled? I just don't remember for sure . . . looks like I'll be googling . . .

EDIT: he won the case based on the Americans with Disabilities Act, which I believe has nothing to do with Title VII. Anyone know for sure?

[gbk56]

This is the first time anyone has brought up something that makes me go hmmmm . . . I forgot about Casey Martin. I know they had to at first, but seeing how it's never happened since, and he was what, maybe just one year, did it get overruled? I just don't remember for sure . . . looks like I'll be googling . . .

Yes, you are correct but the stadards for employee/employer realtionship is the same as title vii. The court also held that the PGA is an employer.

Oh yeah, it went up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court affirmed the initial ruling.

[ClairefromClare]

The New York Times op-ed page blasted the LPGA today, though they didn't get into the "entertain the sponsors" angle. This really is going to be a P.R. disaster.

[Harry Longshanks]

The

Meh. Nobody really reads that little local city newspaper anyway.

[gbk56]

The

I agree, they will probably start to lose even more sponsors.

[shredfit]

Regardless, I still don't think the LPGA is in any way an "employer." The players - they themselves - elected a commissioner to run the LPGA on their behalf. The commissioner is not their "boss" - quite the opposite.

I suppose "employer" IS somantically inaccurate. Let's say they are agents that are elected to help run the tour on the players behalf. Agents whether employment, booking, or the LPGA still have to conform to discrimination laws.

(ie a booking agent working with an entertainer can/could be fired by the entertainer)

Since I've heard the change came from sponsors, I think it will be fairly easy to prove that it's a true "necessary component" of the job that they speak at least a little "golf-related" English.

Would the agent employ what is a truely "necessary component" of the job? Sounds to me like they(the LPGA's elected commissioner) would have at some employable(agent

) authority.

[gbk56]

Since I've heard the change came from sponsors, I think it will be fairly easy to prove that it's a true "necessary component" of the job that they speak at least a little "golf-related" English.

The Supreme Court held that "walking" wasn't essential in playing golf in PGA v. Casey. It will be a tough argument to win.

My question is if the LPGA's true intention was to increase sponsorship, this is the best they could come up with? Suspend anyone who cannot speak "effective" English. I do not think a court will believe that argument. Why not come up with regulations for ProAm behavior as Claire suggested? It seems that would be more effective. IMO the reason is that the original intent was probably "how can we slow down the influx of foreign/korean golfers." I believe that this on any level is plain wrong.

[shredfit]

I believe that this on any level is plain wrong.

I agree, I also think it would hamper long term international growth of the LPGA. It's just a bad idea, period.

[PEZGolf]

I agree, I also think it would hamper long term international growth of the LPGA. It's just a bad idea, period.

I agree with your assessment. I have always been a big fan of the LPGA and still am, even though recent Commissioners leave a lot to be desired. Here is the unfortunate consequence of this decision: while supposedly designed to enhance the Tour's popularity, the very uproar that has occurred questioning it is having the opposite effect. Look at this Discussion Board. Usually, there are only a few responses to a thread about the Tour and few threads that even mention it. Look how many responses there are to this one.

From a PR and business management perspective, IF the objective is to have foreign players learn English to help THEM present themselves to American fans, both live (at the Pro-ams) and on TV, this could have been accomplished by a training program that could have been quietly implemented. It could have been VOLUNTARY, with no FIRM Policy Statement issued to the public. The objective would have been accomplished, with little fanfare or fallout. Why was it not done this way? We will have to ask Commissioner Bivens and the Board.

[ClairefromClare]

From a PR and business management perspective, IF the objective is to have foreign players learn English to help THEM present themselves to American fans, both live (at the Pro-ams) and on TV, this could have been accomplished by a training program that could have been quietly implemented. It could have been VOLUNTARY, with no FIRM Policy Statement issued to the public. The objective would have been accomplished, with little fanfare or fallout. Why was it not done this way? We will have to ask Commissioner Bivens and the Board.

Believe me, I'm not trying to defend the LPGA here; Bivens has always struck me as having a tin ear. I did see something somewhere on previous, unsuccessful attempts to get more English on the tour: they gave foreign-born players a computer program, but (paraphrasing one American player), the Koreans would rather be on the driving range.

Without going into that whole "who's got the better work ethic" debate, it sure sounds like previous attempts were less than half-hearted. I could no more learn a language from a computer program than I could learn to play golf by watching videos and reading books. So--feeble attempt doesn't work, and now they're bringing in the sledgehammer? Geez, this is so totally away from what I do for a living, but I could design a better language/cultural immersion program than this.

[iacas]

This really is going to be a P.R. disaster.

No it won't. It's being talked about among golf fans, but we already watch golf and will probably watch more LPGA golf now because of it. It's at least in our minds.

For most people, this would be the equivalent to some European soccer league announcing some new rule. We're not a nation of soccer fans (unfortunately), so it's a non-issue for 99% of the country. I fail to see that as a PR nightmare. "Tempest in a teacup" is a bit more of an appropriate term.

I could no more learn a language from a computer program than I could learn to play golf by watching videos and reading books.

The LPGA has tutors (actual people) available, too, and Rosetta Stone is one of the best programs for developing new language(s). Don't knock it until you've tried it - a lot of people have used it successfully. I've never used it myself, but have two friends that swear by it. The LPGA has also said they'll continue to have tutors (humans) available, too.

So--feeble attempt doesn't work, and now they're bringing in the sledgehammer?

I find it awfully difficult to call anything as simple as "learn a little golf-related English" (with the subtext of "stop treating the pro-am partners like they're getting in the way of another practice round") with a

two-year warning a "sledgehammer." Come on. Fall 2009, and two years for anyone joining the tour? That's not a sledgehammer - it's a warning. When someone's actually suspended, then come talk to me (at which time I'll likely point out "hey, they had plenty of warning"), because I don't see it happening.

[gbk56]

I find it awfully difficult to call anything as simple as "learn a little golf-related English" (with the subtext of "stop treating the pro-am partners like they're getting in the way of another practice round") with a

If it were just learn a little English then I could agree. Instead it is you are "SUSPENDED" if you do not learn a little English. For tour members that is in several months.

If the subtext is "stop treating the pro-am parters like they're getting in the way of another practice round" I am sure it is not only an English problem. Why haven't they implemented other regulations to stop ALL tour members to "stop treating the pro-am partners like they're getting in the way of another practice round."? Why were only the koreans and not any other foreigners singled out in a mandatory meeting held by the LPGA. Looks to me as though the pretext is "how can we limit the number of foreign/korean players on the tour." That is wrong in my book.

[shredfit]

No it won't. It's being talked about among golf fans, but we already watch golf and will probably watch more LPGA golf now because of it. It's at least in our minds.

Maybe I'm missing something, but wasn't it implied that implementing a language mandate would somehow attract new golf fans to the sport via new sponsors. (ie.. golf fans that are golf fans will likely still be golf fans regardless of any language mandate)

For most people, this would be the equivalent to some European soccer league announcing some new rule. We're not a nation of soccer fans (unfortunately), so it's a non-issue for 99% of the country.

If the new soccer rule targeted a particular group. Example: Darker skinned players were required to wear flesh colored tights under their Jersey to better match lighter skinned players (light skinned players are NOT required to wear the tights). Then, there IS obviously a problem with the soccer rule that goes beyond the fan base itself.

I find it awfully difficult to call anything as simple as "learn a little golf-related English" (with the subtext of "stop treating the pro-am partners like they're getting in the way of another practice round") with a

Will the test be on golf related terms only? Are they not already fined if their pro-am partners complain? Why was the mandate announced at a mandatory Korean meeting? What is wrong with having an interpreter walk the course with the player at the pro-am, if English is not the player spoken language?

If anything, the LPGA IS hammering the mandate onto a specific group... If it looks, smells, tastes, and sounds like discrimination. It might be discrimination.

[PEZGolf]

Why were only the koreans and not any other foreigners singled out in a mandatory meeting held by the LPGA.

It certainly can be interpretted as being directed at the South Koreans, BUT if they do not take it that way, then it will not be a problem with them. They may feel bad that they have had the opportunity to learn enough English to communicate with pro-am partners, fans, and the media, and realize that they did not what they should have done. Apparently, their leader and mentor, Se Ri Pak is not objecting. That tells us a lot right there.

[iacas]

If it were just learn a little English then I could agree. Instead it is you are "SUSPENDED" if you do not learn a little English. For tour members that is in several months.

What do you mean "in several months"? It doesn't take effect until FALL 2009.

And so what if it's "learn a little English or be suspended if you fail a test?" They're not asking them to know a lot of English. Again, they have a frickin' year and some odd months, and new members have two years.

If the subtext is "stop treating the pro-am parters like they're getting in the way of another practice round" I am sure it is not only an English problem.

You're right, and that's one of the problems I have with this policy. But how do you police whether someone properly treated their pro-am partners well? The LPGA already has a policy of fining players when they get complaints from their pro-am participants.

Why haven't they implemented other regulations to stop ALL tour members to "stop treating the pro-am partners like they're getting in the way of another practice round."?

Because only the Koreans treat it like a practice round. Paula Creamer, Lorena Ochoa, Annika... they all get that it's a business and they have to schmooze. They go out of their way to engage their pro-am partners. I've seen it.

The Koreans (and pardon the generalization - I simply don't want to type a bunch of disclaimers every time) ignore their partners except perhaps to nod on the first tee and shake hands awkwardly at the end.

Why were only the koreans and not any other foreigners singled out in a mandatory meeting held by the LPGA.

Because they're by far the largest contingent. If one group is 99% of the "non-English speakers," it only makes sense to have a meeting with them.

20 of 25 winners on the LPGA Tour this year are non-Americans... but some of them are Lorena Ochoa (speaks English), Annika Sorenstam (speaks English), and others who speak English. Karrie Webb, Se Ri Pak... Angela Park.

Looks to me as though the pretext is "how can we limit the number of foreign/korean players on the tour."

If that were the case, it might be wrong (but that's a discussion for another time). Fortunately, it's not the case, and you seem to have ignored all the stated reasons. Why do you have trouble accepting what the LPGA Tour is saying at face value instead of trying to read a bunch of racism or prejudice into it? The LPGA has a marketability problem, and a sponsor-generated problem, and they're trying to solve it.

And it's not like they're saying "speak English by the start of 2009."

Maybe I'm missing something, but wasn't it implied that implementing a language mandate would somehow attract new golf fans to the sport.

The casual sports fan will watch a golf tournament if it's compelling. We see it every time Tiger Woods plays.

You and I may be exceptions, but the average golf fan doesn't watch the LPGA Tour. Part of the reason is the number of "nameless" Koreans that dominate. True, part of their "namelessness" might be that all of their names are somewhat similar, but another part of their "namelessness" is the complete and utter lack of personality. No doubt they HAVE personality, but the casual golf fan doesn't ever get to see any of it. They cannot connect with the players.

If the new soccer rule targeted a particular group.

No, you've totally missed the point of my comment there. My comment spoke to the "PR Disaster" aspect, not the rule itself.

Look, guys, Korean players (the ones who speak English) are behind this rule, and even a few of the ones who are in the process of learning English. Angela Park, Se Ri Pak, and others - they get it, so who are we to take up arms against something THEY SUPPORT? Those who can't speak English were unavailable for comment. The following comments are directed at nobody in particular. This whole discussion (here and elsewhere, but mostly elsewhere simply by volume) smells of self-righteous people who want to come off as anti-racist because it's "the right thing to do." I'll admit it: I wish players would speak English. I want, as a golf fan, to connect with them more. We as Americans are awfully quick to adopt people or teams. We do it for underdogs, or our hometown favorites, or the team whose coach died tragically, or the guy who comes from a similar background or college, or whatever. I want that opportunity to connect with the Korean players, and the language barrier makes it difficult. The TV announcers can't share funny or insightful quips because they can never talk to the players, writers don't write about the players because they can never talk to the players, and so on. The lack of "connection" goes well beyond "they all look the same" and "their names are all the same." Those two can't really be corrected, but the language barrier issue can, to some extent, and I'm glad something might help to change it. Do I think it'll have a huge impact? Maybe not - the biggest affect might be exactly where the LPGA says it will be - on-course discussion with some pro-am partners, victory speeches, and interviews. The latter two matter to fans, and all three matter to sponsors. I think this policy is a little half-baked, but the LPGA admits it and owns up to it. They know it's not yet "done" nor set in stone. We don't know what was said in the meeting, but I have a hunch that they said "here's a policy we've written, it's not done and we're going to tweak it, but here are our reasons. Please share your thoughts with us." I believe they're using this "tweaking" time period to accommodate input from the Korean contingent (and any others affected). If they weren't, they'd have presented a final, set-in-stone policy at the meeting, not one they're planning to finalize several months from now. Step off the soapbox, people. And yeah, I'm taking my own advice now.

[julie_m]

Why were only the koreans and not any other foreigners singled out in a mandatory meeting held by the LPGA.

I heard Carolyn Bivens, the LPGA commissioner, speak on a sports review shows on ESPN the other day, and they asked her about the meeting with the Koreans. Her take, it wasn't where the announcement was made, it wasn't as if they were revealing the policy directed to them...but it was meant to be a discussion with the Koreans about the policy and what it meant BEFORE the announcement was made. From there, the information leaked.

The only reason it was only Koreans is because they're the largest group, and they were going to talk to them "first" (which makes me think they had more meetings planned with the other groups before it all leaked out). Besides, can you imagine a meeting with five different translators? Businesses often do this, discuss plans with their employees (or a certain group of employees) that will be affected by an announcement before announcements are made. It's just a good HR practice. Se Ri Pak was also interviewed, she says she adjusted to being a young girl alone in the US better when she spoke the language. She had to learn, she was the only Korean on tour. Now she thinks the girls are bonding together so much that they're not learning English, and they need to try.