Playing Golf when the Course is closed

[neudi]

Its over simplified; you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes the course is still there, but it is in worse condition after you play on it. If the course is closed it means that you should not play because you will damage it. Just because the surface is not frozen does not mean an inch below it is not. That grass will not grow back. So you are taking something from the owner. You are taking the advantage of having a nicer looking course when it opens.

[flopdarock]

True, but isn't the owner being deprived of revenue by people not paying the greens fee for a facility that the owner maintains?

ummm... if the proshop is closed... there is no revenue coming in

regardless if a player is there or not... if the player is a member... then they have already paid

[iWALK18]

Originally Posted by iWALK18

I will concede that. But then again, he wouldn't have that revenue if I didn't walk on as well. I guess your point gets stronger though as the impact a golfer has on the course increases.

I hate to be a jerk but if you bothered to read the rest of my one line response, you would see that I actually mention the amount of wear and tear caused by your sneaking on.

As for the movie theater, in general I would not think that sneaking into a movie theater is ok, but I have to ask: are they playing movies with nobody selling tickets?

[iWALK18]

Yes the course is still there, but it is in worse condition after you play on it. If the course is closed it means that you should not play because you will damage it. Just because the surface is not frozen does not mean an inch below it is not. That grass will not grow back. So you are taking something from the owner. You are taking the advantage of having a nicer looking course when it opens.

That's completely fair and if its true you have a really good point. I think the wear and tear on the course from playing the game in general is the biggest tripping point for walking on.

I personally think that a lot of courses are closed not because you will cause damage, but because they are unable to adjust to early spring conditions, or because most people don't want to play in 35-45* weather. Also, (and I admit I don't know much about this) I just don't believe that freezing conditions mean you cause extra damage. Are you talking about the greens or the fairways (or both)? Maybe it depends on the type of grass? I say that because the home course I had when I lived in Boston used to let us on when the course had ice and snowdrifts all over it, and their conditions were fine come opening.

[microcrayfish]

My home course where I'm a member only closes on a few public holidays and if they're coring the greens or something. Sometimes it gets closed for play when tournaments or events are on but then there's still people around in that case so you can't just walk on. I know for a fact that when there's nobody around at the pro shop that it's fine to play, because I've asked the club pro about it (we don't really get snow and golf courses aren't closed over winter here).

And here's a simple solution to the green fees problem that most clubs do around here - put out a courtesy box so that anyone who wants to play when nobody's around deposits their money in it and writes them self out a receipt to show any course staff who are around that may want to see it. There's a whole bunch of country courses around the region/country that are a bit off the beaten track that hardly ever have people there during the week, so that's how they get most of their green fees. Simple.

[neudi]

That's completely fair and if its true you have a really good point. I think the wear and tear on the course from playing the game in general is the biggest tripping point for walking on.

It is just like when you get a frost delay, you can't play on the greens because you will kill the grass and it will have a longer time recovering from this. I'm speaking on behalf of courses that are very manicured and are very nice course, both public and private. At my course, if you play when the course is closed, you will be prosecuted because of the damage that could be done. It may be different where you play and I'm not trying to argue. I am just saying that if a course is closed, either for a day or for the off season, there is a reason and I think you should have to get permission from the owner/pro before you play just like Iacas does.

[mirv]

i've played several of the local courses on closed days like christmas or thanksgiving. i've never just presumed i could walk on and play, though. in the days beforehand, i would call or go to the shop and ask if i was okay if i played when the course was closed. invariably, they'd tell me that it was fine, but i'd either have to walk or bring my own golf cart. the impression i've gotten has been that courses are more than happy to let you play for free when they're closed if you have the common courtesy to ask permission before you do it.

[Dub]

The courses have many expenses....taxes, labor, equipment, insurance, materials and etc.

They must recoup these expenses to stay in business.

I equate just walking up and playing in the same category as theft and tresspassing. If the pro shop isn't open then consider the course closed and stay off. It's that simple to me.

It is a fairly simple issue....go through the proper channels. Pay to play or stay away.

[David in FL]

That's not really a good analogy in my mind, because stealing an object deprives the owner of revenue resulting from its sale in the future. Walking on a golf course doesn't harm the owner in that way.

Actually, it's a very good analogy. Revenue has nothing to do with it, nor does the fact that the owner may, or may not miss or even be aware of the loss. A round of golf has value in the market. Obtaining something of any value without payment or permission of the owner is a crime. What's more, it's ethically wrong.

[Surefire]

Its over simplified; you're comparing apples to oranges.

I hate to be a jerk but if you bothered to read the rest of my one line response, you would see that I actually mention the amount of wear and tear caused by your sneaking on.

That's completely fair and if its true you have a really good point. I think the wear and tear on the course from playing the game in general is the biggest tripping point for walking on.

I hate to be a jerk, but make your mind up. First you slate me for mentioning damage caused to the course, and then you give credit to someone else saying the same thing in different words.

As to the movie theatre example I wasn't talking about the movie theatre being closed, but playing movies. I was comparing the fact of taking something thats not a physcial item. If it was a case of not seeing the movie or sneaking in, either way the owner of the theatre is not losing out on money, but that doesn't make sneaking in ok.

[nykfan4life]

just to clarify, i'm talking about a public course

[Dub]

just to clarify, i'm talking about a public course

Public, private, semi-private, municipal.....no difference. They have operating expenses and guidlines that are put in place for all to follow.

Tresspassing and theft.

[iWALK18]

I hate to be a jerk, but make your mind up. First you slate me for mentioning damage caused to the course, and then you give credit to someone else saying the same thing in different words.

Surefire,

I'm sorry if I offended you. I tend to get caught up in discussions like this. You made a good point, and the right point in my opinion. I just found it odd that you would quote me, and then respond in a way that seems to ignore something I had said in that quote. It bothers me to think that someone would respond to my post without reading it, but if you did read it and I misinterpreted you I apologize. And I have "made up my mind" for the most part (although I'm always willing to listen to and consider other people's opinions). My moral decision on this issue hinges mainly on how much damage playing golf does to the course. If I felt I were doing excessive damage to a course by playing it, I would not walk on. Who says whats "excessive"? Me. I always wear flats, I don't play when its overly wet, and I always repair the ground. That's my stance. The level of legal risk I am willing to take depends on how clearly "closed" the course is. If its private, I'm not walking on. If its public, the flags are in, and there is no signage proclaiming the course closed, I feel comfortable walking on. Those are my decisions. Maybe one day I will get busted with a trespassing fine, and if that happens it will change my outlook for sure. We live and we learn.

[iWALK18]

As to the movie theatre example I wasn't talking about the movie theatre being closed, but playing movies. I was comparing the fact of taking something thats not a physcial item. If it was a case of not seeing the movie or sneaking in, either way the owner of the theatre is not losing out on money, but that doesn't make sneaking in ok.

And yes this is a better example for sure. Sneaking in while they are selling tickets is like sneaking on while the golf course is open. That's a no-no for me. Assuming they play movies while not selling tickets, that situation draws other good parallels I think.

Here is what I would say about the movies: if the doors are wide open, and the movies are playing, I would walk right in and sit in a seat. I don't think I'm hurting anyone by doing that. If the doors are locked and the sign says "no admittance", no I'm not going in.

[Surefire]

Surefire,

No offence taken, and I can see your point, although the second part of your sentence that i quoted was pretty vague.

What got me was you then went on to agree with the guy after even though he made pretty much the same point about wear and tear that I did, just in different words. Anyway like I said no offence taken, so hopefully you're cool with it too. Topics like this tend to get a rise from me. A similar one I have with friends is if you wouldn't steal a CD from a store, why is it ok to download the music for free? Anyway lets get back on topic...

[ChappyEight]

I love discussions like this where everyone has respectfully stated their opinions. There hasn't been any message board "flaming", flying off the handle, etc.

We may not all agree, but I definitely appreciate the level of respect that is being given as it makes for a great debate.

[mst_coastie]

To agree with others, it just seems wrong to me, like stealing candy from a baby

[Tobias]

I'd like to know that as well! I have always wondered