Provisional ball and water hazards

[M2R]

You are correct there is no provisional allowed for a ball

Provisionals are only for lost ball and out of bounds.

I hit my approach shot long, and

mruseless, under the ROG I think you actually should have played a provisional because according to your description, "though there was a chance" doesn't exactly sound like "known or virtually certain" to me. 26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard

In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

[mruseless]

mruseless, under the ROG I think you actually

Very interesting. The rough around the green was sloping down out of sight, and I had no idea how far it went before it reached the hazard stakes. So when I saw my ball drop out of site over the green, I was hoping it was in play, but that strip of rough was narrower than I anticipated.

However, once I walked up to the green, I was "virtually certain" my ball had gone into the hazard, since there was nowhere else it could have gone. So, does the "virtually certain" come into play when I'm still in the fairway, or after I've walked up to the green and looked at the situation?

[RemyM]

Two clubs lengths from nearest point of relief, no closer to the hole. Where the ball crossed the line of the hazard is your starting point, but not always your nearest point of relief.

No, it's two club lengths from the spot it crossed the margin of the lateral hazard, not nearest point of relief.

http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/pdf/2008ROG.pdf 26-1.c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

[iacas]

Two clubs lengths from nearest point of relief, no closer to the hole. Where the ball crossed the line of the hazard is your starting point, but not always your nearest point of relief.

No, that's not true at all. There's no "nearest point" when you're dropping out of a water hazard. It's two clublengths from where it went in (lateral hazard only), re-play the shot, or go on a line back away from the flag. No "nearest point."

mruseless, under the ROG I think you actually

I believe that's incorrect. In order to be allowed to play a provisional, there should be evidence the ball will be lost (or OB). It seems likely that the ball would either be: a) found in the grass behind the green, or b) not found, in which case you can be virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard.

If you hit "provisionals" when there's no reason to suspect your ball would be lost, then that's just abusing the rules to get in extra practice, which is also not allowed.

[RemyM]

mruseless, under the ROG I think you actually

You are confusing the terminology. You can only hit a provisional if a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of

bounds, unless the following local rule is adopted. However playing under this local rule you lose the option to take any relief if the ball is in the hazard. 1. Water Hazards; Ball Played Provisionally Under Rule 26-1 if a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such size and shape and/or located in such a position that: (i) it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and (ii) if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard, the Committee may introduce a Local Rule permitting the play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1. The ball is played provisionally under any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. in such a case, if a ball is played provisionally and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball. in these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended: “if there is doubt whether a ball is in or is lost in the water hazard (specify location), the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the applicable options in Rule 26-1. if the original ball is found outside the water hazard, the player must continue play with it. if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the player may either play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally under Rule 26-1. if the original ball is not found or identified within the five-minute search period, the player must continue with the ball played provisionally. penALTY fOR BReACH Of LOCAL RULe: Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.”

[billm408]

No, it's two club lengths from the spot it crossed the margin of the lateral hazard, not nearest point of relief.

Yep... brain fart on my end. I'm confusing threads... taking an unplayable is one club length from point of nearest relief. Hazards is from where it crosses the line.

[iacas]

Yep... brain fart on my end. I'm confusing threads... taking an unplayable is one club length from point of nearest relief. Hazards is from where it crosses the line.

No, that's also wrong...

Source: USGA Rules of Golf c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

Unless I'm brain farting as well right now, you never get to use the "nearest point of relief" in penalty situations. Penalty drops are also almost always two strokes, while free drops (cart path, etc.) are almost always one clublength.

[pittpanther]

Can someone summarize the final answer? Three pages of responses, but I'm not sure which response holds the truth. Every response is followed by a contradiction!

I assume that this water hazard behind the green is NOT a lateral hazard, so none of those rules come into play...

[billm408]

No, that's also wrong...

Nope... still me. Two club lengths with penalty stroke. One club length if you're getting free drop. Jeez... is it Friday yet!

[Leftygolfer]

Can someone summarize the final answer? Three pages of responses, but I'm not sure which response holds the truth. Every response is followed by a contradiction!

Let me see if I have this straight. We are all talking about a hazard marked red.

You would drop within two club lengths of where the ball entered the hazard no nearer to the hole. You could also go back as far as you want in line with the flag and drop there with this hazard as well. Is this also an option? Now I am confused too.

[iacas]

Definitive Answer:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...es/rule26.html .

Bookmark this, everyone:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/rules.html .

[mruseless]

Good link, thanks.

This is why I carry a summary rule book with me, but this particular situation had left me a little confused. BTW, I highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Golf-Rules-Qui...d_bxgy_b_img_c

[tjy355]

Could you elaborate on this a little? My understanding is that line of flight is only used to determine the point where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard. Am I correct?

I know what you are saying, but the words "line of flight" are not found in the rule and only serve to add confusion.

The point where the ball crossed the margin is a POINT. Remember geometry... An intersection of two lines is a point. The path of the ball is one line and the margin of the water hazard is another line. Where that ball crossed the margin is the POINT of interest - In other words, where the ball was or what direction it came from before crossing the margin is immaterial. Oh yeah, and it is the point where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the hazard.

[pittpanther]

Definitive Answer:

Based on this, the OP only has two options:

1. go back and hit from the original spot, with a 1-stroke penalty 2. go around the water hazard to the other side, drop anywhere on the same line, again with a 1-stroke penalty I don't know this course, but I can imagine that option #2 is probably difficult/impossible, and option #1 would be frowned-upon if the course is crowded. Neither option is "satisfying" in the real world, given crowded conditions. Probably the best (worst) option is to drop in front of the hazard, with a 2-stroke penalty. Or, go ahead and hit a provisional once he knew he overshot the green. If he can't find his original ball, the provisional is in play, with a 1-stroke penalty.

[iacas]

Based on this, the OP only has two options:

As we said, it was probably a lateral water hazard, giving him the third option: within two club lengths of the point it last crossed the margin of the hazard.

The odds that it'd be yellow are slim to none.

[RemyM]

There could be one other option. There could be a drop area established where you could play your next shot from.

PART A: LOCAL RULES
6. Dropping Zones
establishing special areas on which balls may or must be
dropped when it is not feasible or practicable to proceed
exactly in conformity with Rule 24-2b (immovable Obstruction),
Rule 24-3 (Ball in Obstruction not found), Rule 25-1b or
25-1c (Abnormal Ground Conditions), Rule 25-3 (Wrong putting
Green), Rule 26-1 (Water Hazards and Lateral Water Hazards)
or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).

[deronsizemore]

There could be one other option. There could be a drop area established where you could play your next shot from.

I think typically you're more likely to find a drop area for this type of situation on a par 3. I don't remember the last time I've seen a drop area for something like this on a par 4.

[Leftygolfer]

There could be one other option. There could be a drop area established where you could play your next shot from.

This will be marked yellow and there should be a specified place to drop and you have to drop there.