Yellow staked hazards on courses?

[CarlSpackler]

There are quite a few lakes here that are both yellow and red since it wraps around the front of the green or fairway. We just have to use our best judgment as to where it crossed the line of the hazard. To complicate matters, most of the stakes are missing since they are draining the lakes.

[Fourputt]

I guess I'm just lucky, but my home course is a municipal course that is actually marked correctly. All water hazards are clearly marked with both stakes and lines, properly color coded, so there is no doubt as to whether it is a water hazard or a lateral water hazard. Areas where relief is allowed from ground under repair are also clearly marked with white paint. The lines are repainted a couple of times each month, and during that process the stakes are checked to be sure that none has been moved from its proper location.

[SubPar]

Unless the rules have changes recently, yellow stakes require you to keep the hazard between you and the hole, so dropping in the bunker wouldn't be an option.

If one of your options is to drop where you originally played the shot then I think you could drop in the bunker. If you are taking that option you are not required to keep the point where the ball crossed into the hazard between yourself and the hole.

It would take just as long to mark them with red stakes as it would to mark them with yellow.

True, but that's not what I said. I said they leave them unmarked rather than take the time to mark them yellow.

SubPar

[Fourputt]

True, but that's not what I said. I said they leave them unmarked rather than take the time to mark them yellow.

So what then defines the margin??? Just sounds like a lazy staff.

[Ignorant]

I play a number of courses around southern CA and I can't remember ever seeing a hazard marked with yellow stakes.

This issue is clearly defined in the Rules of Golf:

Definitions - Water Hazard - Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard must be yellow . Definitions - Lateral Water Hazard - Note 1: That part of a water hazard to be played as a lateral water hazard must be distinctively marked. Stakes or lines used to define the margin of or identify a lateral water hazard must be red .

So what then defines the margin??? Just sounds like a lazy staff.

Precisely. It is the duty of the Committee to define them:

33-2.The Course a. Defining Bounds and Margins The Committee must define accurately : (i) the course and out of bounds (ii) the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards ,

[iacas]

So what then defines the margin??? Just sounds like a lazy staff.

Exactly - he's saying they're hazards, and I assume they're marked (or they wouldn't be hazards), and then he comes along to tell us they're not marked (thus, not hazards). So whatever...

At the two courses I play most frequently, the only things that aren't always marked is OB, but since a lost ball penalty is the same as OB, it's irrelevant (and none of the "non-marked OB" is against someone's back yard or something).

[SubPar]

Exactly - he's saying they're hazards, and I assume they're marked (or they wouldn't be hazards), and then he comes along to tell us they're not marked (thus, not hazards). So whatever...

If you are talking about me, I didn't say any such thing. There are ditches and bodies of water that are not marked. They are not 'hazards' by deifnition of the rules so if you could not play out of them then you'd proceed under the rules applied to an unplayable lie, but you are not restircted by the rules of a hazard if you play out of them (i.e., grounding your club).

At the two courses I play most frequently, the only things that aren't always marked is OB, but since a lost ball penalty is the same as OB, it's irrelevant (and none of the "non-marked OB" is against someone's back yard or something).

The perimiter of the course is OB by default (fences, roads, parking lots, etc.). Is there any other kind of "non-marked OB"?

So what then defines the margin??? Just sounds like a lazy staff.

If it is not marked as a hazard then there is no perimiter, nor any need for one. You play it like any other part of the course. You either have a lost ball or a playable/unplayable lie.

SubPar

[Ignorant]

If you are talking about me, I didn't say any such thing. There are ditches and bodies of water that are not marked. They are not 'hazards' by deifnition of the rules so if you could not play out of them then you'd proceed under the rules applied to an unplayable lie, but you are not restircted by the rules of a hazard if you play out of them (i.e., grounding your club).

Rules of Golf define water hazards in a following manner:

‘A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.’ According to the definition above the status of a water hazard cannot be taken away by not marking it. This fact is supported by Decision 26/3.

The perimiter of the course is OB by default (fences, roads, parking lots, etc.). Is there any other kind of "non-marked OB"?

OB is always marked with white poles. In absence of such poles the course extends to infinity. For practical reasons OB is very often defined but for example in case of an ocean is is hardly necessary to mark the OB.

[iacas]

If you are talking about me, I didn't say any such thing.

Yes, you did:

I am guessing that it takes time and money to mark "non lateral hazards" with yellow stakes and paint so some courses have just left those with no markings.

Only now are you trying to change this discussion from "hazards" to "ditches." The thread title you chose has "hazards" in it.

The perimiter of the course is OB by default (fences, roads, parking lots, etc.). Is there any other kind of "non-marked OB"?

The areas on the course to which I'm referring goes another 50 to 300 yards of wooded area before you reach the "perimeter" of the course. They used to have OB stakes at the edges of the trees (the woods), but have since done away with them as unnecessary - your ball is lost, and the penalty is the same (stroke and distance).

Besides, the "perimeter of the course" is not OB by default. You're wrong. n.b. Tiger Woods at Firestone, 2007 (?). Remember when he hit it into the parking lot BEYOND the clubhouse? Free drop. Wasn't OB. No markings.

If it is not marked as a hazard then there is no perimiter, nor any need for one. You play it like any other part of the course. You either have a lost ball or a playable/unplayable lie.

You seem to be missing the point. If it's not marked, and it's just a ditch (see below), who's to say it's a hazard? Only now do we know of these things as ditches - you previously referred to them only as "hazards" which were "not marked." By calling them "hazards" you're implying certain things under the rules of golf.

I play a number of courses around southern CA and I can't remember ever seeing a hazard marked with yellow stakes.

If they're not marked, they may not be hazards at all, since none of us have an idea what you mean by "ditch." Is it water-filled? Is it something fish live in? Or is it a grassed depression that aids in runoff? Maybe something they're doing in construction - just torn up turf around a water line or something. I've seen all of those called ditches.

If they are meant to be hazards, then your course is either too lazy or cheap to put yellow stakes (or red stakes) around 'em. That's lame. I don't play many courses that are too lazy or cheap to do that.

According to the definition above the status of a water hazard cannot be taken away by not marking it. This fact is supported by Decision 26/3.

Indeed, and the relevant portion is here:

Source: Decision 26/3 A. It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards — see Rule 33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).

It's the responsibility of the committee to define the hazard. If they don't, who's to say where the hazard begins and ends? So while there are decisions that allow for a lazy committee, that's all you've got in the end: a lazy or cheap committee. (This particular decision relates to a lateral (red) hazard, but the ruling is the same for the yellows... Basically when in doubt, golfers proceed under equity. If there's a pond somewhere, it's a hazard even if the committee is too lazy/cheap to mark it as such. Common sense still has a part in the game.)

OB is always marked with white poles. In absence of such poles the course extends to infinity. For practical reasons OB is very often defined but for example in case of an ocean is is hardly necessary to mark the OB.

Actually they should mark the ocean as OB, because it could easily be argued that it's a lateral hazard.

[SubPar]

Yes, you did:

What I was saying is that sometimes there is a body of water or a ditch that one might think of as a 'non-lateral hazard', but may not be marked for the reasons stated. If it is not marked then it is not a hazard under the rules. This should pretty clear. Perhaps you should be less quick to take an insulting, contrarian position without actually reading and comprehending what is being written.

You act like I am wrong and then repeat what I said in the first place. I was replying to someone who asked how you would identify the margin if it is not marked. I said the same thing you did, while telling me I'm missing the point.

If they're not marked, they may not be hazards at all, since none of us have an idea what you mean by "ditch."

Speak for yourself. You don't know what a dry drainage ditch is or a depression with tall grass in it, which one might describe as a ditch? You have never seen, or cannot imagine such a thing?

I am guessing I am not the only person who plays a course now and then that has a body of water which is not a marked hazard, and/or has dry ditches, trenches, depressions across a fairway that are not marked, but could be marked, as hazards. Some of them will get something from this discussion, though you may not. SubPar

[iacas]

If it is not marked then it is not a hazard under the rules. This should pretty clear.

Why should something that's incorrect be pretty clear? Hazards should be marked - it's the responsibility of the committee to do so - but need not be marked in order to be played as hazards. Scroll up a few posts for the relevant information.

Speak for yourself.

Isn't that all we can do?

You don't know what a dry drainage ditch is or a depression with tall grass in it, which one might describe as a ditch? You have never seen, or cannot imagine such a thing?

No need to get snippy. "Ditch" is a vague term that can be used to describe all sorts of things. You've described one type (for the first time), and your first post didn't say anything about a "ditch" or what type of possible hazard you were asking about.

We have what our superintendent calls a "drainage ditch" at one of the courses I play which extends across the fairway, is grassed, and is cut to fairway height. He calls it a ditch, and though it'll occasionally collect casual water, it's not a water hazard at all, and nobody plays it as anything but part of the fairway (and the rough where it is rough).

I am guessing I am not the only person who plays a course now and then that has a body of water which is not a marked hazard, and/or has dry ditches, trenches, depressions across a fairway that are not marked, but could be marked, as hazards.

I can't recall playing a course that's so cheap and/or lazy that they can't afford to buy and use some yellow stakes.

Does that end it for you? Hope so.

[iacas]

And, y'know, this thread's gone so far from the original question - which should have been a poll, by the way - that it's rather pointless to continue.

SubPar means one thing but only drops relevant pieces of information as we go along, shifting the picture he's painted as he does, and I've got better things to do than to play that game.

In the end:

Yellow Hazards and Red Hazards (water and lateral water) should be marked by the committee. If they're not, you still play them as if they were per the Decision cited above.

If you want to start another thread about this - with a poll, I suggest - then I suggest you're a little more careful with your wording. I was clearly not the only one who was unable to use my powers of ESP to divine what you meant to say from what you actually said.