Rules Question: Water/Provisional

[Wazzu8]

So yesterday I was on this par 5 on the course I work at.

I end up hitting my second shot with a 6 iron to the right, where it can either be OB or in the water or safe (happened the last 2 times). I end up hitting a provisional just incase, and hit it about 5 ft from the pin.

I find my first ball in the water, so I am about to drop then I remember watching this golf movie (forgot name it was on at the end) where this guy was playing in the US Open. He was trying to hit it on the green and 2 and every time it would roll back in the water where he would drop from the same spot and try again.

So I wondered, am I able to play my provisional plus one for the drop? I sank the putt so do I get a par? The water is marked red and I do not know the ruling on this situation. I played a second ball from where I would drop my first shot and got a 6. I used that score for my card but I would like to make it one stroke better if possible.

Thanks for the help.

[opie]

Yes you can play the provisional because with the water hazard you can go back to the original spot to play the penalty shot (OB you have to go back to the original spot). Pretty much what you had already done playing the provisional. 2nd shot with the 6 iron was stroke 4 and the putt was 5. So you parred

And the movie was Tin Cup

[mruseless]

I am not a rules expert, but here's what I think. First, you are not allowed to play a provisional for a ball in a water hazard. So if you played the provisional in case the ball went OB, then found your ball in the hazard, you have to play the ball in the hazard. I.e, you have to drop or replay the original shot with a one stroke penalty.

If you knew that your ball went into the hazard, then your "provisional" immediately becomes the ball in play at that point. But you can't hit the provisional, then see the ball in the hazard, and say "well, in that case I'll just take my provisional with a one stroke penalty."

Hope that makes sense.

[Slim 11]

Because you have the option of dropping anywhere but no closer to the pin, you were within the rules to play your drop from the original location of the shot that went in the water. I do not think you need to declare that it is being hit because you are out of bounds or in a water hazard. The idea of the provisional is that you "think" the ball is lost and you are playing as if it is unless you find out otherwise.

Once you realized the ball was in the water, the provisional became the ball in play and the stroke you made with it (along with teh penalty) was within the rules for playing the water hazard.

BTW, Tin Cup is an awesome movie.

[mruseless]

  Slim 11 said:

Because you have the option of dropping anywhere but no closer to the pin, you were within the rules to play your drop from the original location of the shot that went in the water. I do not think you need to declare that it is being hit because you are out of bounds or in a water hazard. The idea of the provisional is that you "think" the ball is lost and you are playing as if it is unless you find out otherwise.

I think you are wrong about this. To play strictly to the rules, you cannot simply make your provisional the ball in play if you find your ball in a hazard. You have to

at that time go back and hit another shot, or take your drop. This is because a provisional can only be played if your ball is lost outside of a hazard or is OB.

[Slim 11]

26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

If a ball is in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

You were within the rules. 27-1 is the option if you are not sure what happened to the ball. Simple stroke and distance rule. The only difference with the water hazard is that you have additional options.

[mruseless]

After finding his ball in the hazard, he can then go back and hit another ball. But he cannot hit a provisional for that situation before finding the ball in the hazard.

Or maybe you are saying that because he wasn't virutally certain that his ball was in the hazard that it was OK to hit the provisional? That makes sense, I guess. Never really thought of it that way, not sure. The way I read the rule, once he finds his ball in the hazard, he has to play that ball because the provisional is for a lost ball, not a ball in a hazard.

[David in FL]

  mruseless said:

I am not a rules expert, but here's what I think. First, you are not allowed to play a provisional for a ball in a water hazard. So if you played the provisional in case the ball went OB, then found your ball in the hazard, you have to play the ball in the hazard. I.e, you have to drop or replay the original shot with a one stroke penalty.

This is correct. So sorry, the provisional that you played is not allowed in this case.

[Slim 11]

I think it comes down to what you most believed the case to be with the original ball. Maybe I am interpreting the rules incorrectly, but I do not see where they were broken.

26-1 states to play it as he did if he was "virtually certain" that the ball was in the water. Or he could have dropped where the ball crossed the hazard.

If he was uncertain if he was in the water or thought that, most likely, he was OB. the 27-1 applies which is also the same as what he did.

The provisional rule is in place to help pace of play. If he had gone to find the exact status of the ball, he would have to have then made the determination to drop nearer the hazard or return to the tee (granted, he probably would have dropped by the hazard, but...)

Maybe there is a gray area that would make me incorrect in tournament play, but in that case you probably would have had a forecaddie or ranger to tell you what happened to the original ball.

I can accept being wrong, but I just don't see it by reading the rules.

[blcorn80]

I'm going to have to agree with mruseless on this one. It is my understanding that a provisional can only be played in the case of a ball thought to be either lost or OB. Since the original ball was found in a hazard (not lost nor OB), then the provisional ball is disregarded and the player must proceed under the rules and options pertaining to hazards. One of these options would be to return to the spot of the last shot, drop, and play his fourth. However, he cannot simply treat the provisional as his fourth ball played under hazard rules.

A good example of a similar problem occurred on tour a few years ago. I can't remember the tournament or hole, but the gist of the situation was this:
Phil Mickelson had hit his drive way off the fairway into some pretty long fescue grass. Thinking the ball might be lost he hit ( bombed ) a provisional right down central. Phil realized that even if his original ball was found there was a high probability that he would not end up laying 3 in as good a position as his provisional ball put him (i.e. he might have to take an unplayable but still have to hit out of the fescue). If his original was found he would, of course, have the option of returning to the tee, taking a penalty, and hitting his third shot (in hopes of ending up in a similar position as his provisional). Of course, Phil being Phil, the odds of him blasting another tee shot down the middle were not guaranteed - it would certainly be nice if he could just play his provisional. Therefore, he practically begged the spotters and spectators not to look for his original ball, knowing that if they found it he would not longer have the option of simply playing his provisional. Clearly if the rules allowed Phil to proceed as the OP would have liked to in his situation (i.e. deciding whether or not to use the provisional as his third only after discovering the position in which his original ball lay) he would have tried his hardest to find the original shot, and then decided whether he wanted to try to pull off some super-heroic and near-impossible shot or simply play the provisional ball.

If memory serves me, I believe the original ball was found by a spectator and Phil was forced to take an unplayable. He was not happy.

[mruseless]

Slim 11, I can understand your interpretation of the rule. I don't know for sure which interp is correct, maybe there is a rules official on this board who can give us an opinion... Anyway, its an interesting discussion.

And I definitely agree that the rule will speed play (if only more people took advantage!)

[Slim 11]

Upon re-reading rule 27-1 and 27-2 (provisional ball), I believe I stand corrected. It is not crystal clear but I believe the last part of 27-2 implies that if you are playing a provisional because the ball went out of bounds or is lost (not in a water hazard) and you find that the ball is in a water hazard then you have to abandon the provisional and proceed under 26-1.

Kudos to the other posters for their knowledge. I learn something everyday.

Of course, if you were "virtually certain" at the tie of the provisional that the ball was in the water, you were good to go, but it doesn;t sound like you were. This is were your conscience comes in to play . I think you got a 6.

[David in FL]

  Slim 11 said:

26-1 states to play it as he did if he was "virtually certain" that the ball was in the water. Or he could have dropped where the ball crossed the hazard.

I think you're misunderstanding the rule. What 26-1 is saying is that if you did not see the ball actually enter the hazard, you have to be virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard in order have the options available to you due to the water hazard. If you don't know that for a virtual certainty, then you have to proceed under 27-1 for a ball that is lost or OB.......the only option then being stroke and distance. Had the OP seen the ball go into the water hazard and decided at that time to replay from the original spot, the ball wouldn't have been a provisional, it would have been immediately in play. But that's not what he did. He played a provisional, found his ball in the hazard, and at that point the provisional is no longer an option. Does that make sense?

[Slim 11]

David, blcorn and mruseless are all correct on this one. Thank you for clarifying.

I will just take a moment here to say that these are the types of conversations I really enjoy on this forum. No arguing, no nastiness...just a good debate and excellent explanations.

Again, I am glad to have learned something today. I will save my humble pie for lunch. Maybe a side order of crow.

[blcorn80]

  Slim 11 said:

David, blcorn and mruseless are all correct on this one. Thank you for clarifying.

I agree. Nice to see someone on the internet that understands the purpose of discussion forums.

[opie]

Honest Question

Is there a rule that says you "HAVE" to go look for a ball? I mean when you know it's lost in the water and you know it's gone you don't go look and you have the option of teeing another one up where you hit the last

[Slim 11]

The action you take is based on your certainty of the status of the original ball. If you "know" it's OB or in the water, you proceed accordingly.

[blcorn80]

  opie said:

Honest Question

You

always have the option of taking a one-stroke penalty and hitting another from the spot of the last shot. The ball does not have to be lost, in a hazard, or OB.