Rules Question: Water/Provisional

[Slim 11]

I can buy that, I suppose. However, i think, again, it's all about the language. Call it "lost" or "unplayable", you are facing the same penalty.

I would say, though, that given the ruling that another player or opponent can ask you to identify your ball and you are required to by the rules, declaring it lost if it is not well and truly gone, leaves you open to having to deal with it. And I think if you were to hit a new ball and your original was subsequently located you would have to then declare the original unplayable and go back and hit again, forsaking the second ball you hit.

This is fun but very confusing.

27-2c/2 Ball Believed to Be Original Found; Player Wishes to Ignore It and Continue Play with Provisional Ball

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player plays his tee shot into a heavy thicket. Since his ball may be lost, he hits a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. In the circumstances, it is advantageous to the player not to find his original ball. Accordingly, the player does not search for the original ball and walks directly toward his provisional ball. While the player is on his way to his provisional ball, a ball believed to be his original is found. The player is advised that his original ball may have been found. May the player ignore this ball and continue play with the provisional ball?

A. No. The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player's original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule). The provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c. See also Decision 27-2b/1.


And there! Found it.

[saltman]

You can't decide ot is lost. It either is or isn't. You CAN decide it is unplayable.

Your missing a very big part to the decision. I hit a ball that is a very real possibility of being lost. I also know that if its found it would be unplayable, but my provisional can only be based on the assumption it will be lost. I immediately hit a provisional which is my right and put it safely in the fairway. Now I have a ball safely in play, my other ball can be deemed lost and I can make double and move on.

If my opponent decides to look for my ball and finds it, that is his right. If I find and its unplayable, I cannot simply pick it up and then walk over and play my provisional as that ball was played under the assumption the ball was lost. I can either, take 2 clubs relief (+1 stroke) which probably keeps me in the fescue and forces me to hack out the fairway, I can keep line of sight to the hole and walk back and drop behind the fescue which may very well put me parallel to the tee box (or where I orginally hit if not a tee shot) (+1 stroke), or I re-tee (+1 stroke) which is likely the best option. While yes, its the same penalty, recall that I already had a provisional IN PLAY. Now I have to put another ball IN PLAY.

[jonnythan]

Your missing a very big part to the decision. I hit a ball that is a very real possibility of being lost. I also know that if its found it would be unplayable, but my provisional can only be based on the assumption it will be lost. I immediately hit a provisional which is my right and put it safely in the fairway. Now I have a ball safely in play, my other ball can be deemed lost and I can make double and move on.

This makes a great deal of sense to me, given my reading of the rules. Thanks.

[Slim 11]

Your missing a very big part to the decision. I hit a ball that is a very real possibility of being lost. I also know that if its found it would be unplayable, but my provisional can only be based on the assumption it will be lost. I immediately hit a provisional which is my right and put it safely in the fairway. Now I have a ball safely in play, my other ball can be deemed lost and I can make double and move on.

I am in full agreement with you and that is what I have been trying to say (most notably on my last post). You can't just say "lost" because there are other rules that CAN be applied involving the ball being found and resulting in the situation you described. However, the rules state that you can declare the ball unplayable.

[saltman]

sorry Slim, I missed your last post. Yep, you got it. Like I said, i wouldn't hold it against a player at all if he didn't want his ball to be found and I wouldn't bother searching if he wasn't. Also, that being said, I would never immediately declare it unplayable and re-tee. If I really thought it was lost OR at best unplayable, I choose lost a play a provisional, maybe it hit something and kicked out. No such thing as a provisional for an unplayable.

[Slim 11]

sorry Slim, I missed your last post. Yep, you got it. Like I said, i wouldn't hold it against a player at all if he didn't want his ball to be found and I wouldn't bother searching if he wasn't.

I agree with that. Whenever I am playing against someone and they shank one off and re-tee, all I'm think is "that's 2 strokes for me". If they're not looking for it, neither am I.

[iacas]

First of all this happens more often than you give it credit for, apparantly just not at the courses you play. I frequently play links style course where fescue can run up the sides of the hole nearly from tee to green, which makes line of sight worthless.

Bethpage Black had the same sort of fescue. Phil got an advantageous drop because he was able to find his ball. He hit his ball onto the green and saved par, I believe - he'd have had to hole out from wherever his "stroke and distance" shot was played if he followed your method.

It's very simple: if you don't want to bother to have to walk back if, after you find your ball, you decide it's unplayable, declare it unplayable immediately and hit again. But again, that's your call, and you're depriving yourself of the possibility of the three options I previously listed. You seem to be awfully hung up on my use of the word "shady." Stop giving it so much weight. I didn't consider my word choice for an hour, and if you want to deprive yourself of three possibly better options for playing your golf ball, I really don't care. But you know what, I still think I'm gonna stick with "shady." Let's say you're hitting your second on a par five. You hit it in the weeds. So you play a "provisional" and nearly hole out, leaving you a tap-in for par. In that situation, I think it's somewhat shady to take advantage of the fact that you hit a provisional that just happened to turn out fine. A provisional implies you're going to try to find your original. Your opponents, if they were so inclined, might try really hard to find your ball.

BUT, the biggest advantage to finding it is it opens up a much higher number. Now I may have to go back and put another ball in play.

Yep, you would.

Furthermore you are making the decision to back every other group up on the course behind you even further.

Right, it's the person who didn't hit the bad shot that's at fault. No, it's not the person who calls it unplayable after his lousy shot is hit to begin with.

I've been playing competitive golf for a long time. On at least one occasion a player hit a ball towards some trees. He hit his provisional in water on the other side of the fairway. It'd be shady of me not to help him find his first ball. I found it and I pointed it out to him as etiquette and fairness demand of me. He tied me on the hole when, with his provisional, he would have not had a chance. Again, like my par five example, intentionally not looking for a ball because you happened to hit a really good shot with your provisional strikes me as shady. It's against the general concept behind the game of golf, even if it's not necessarily against the rules. Declare it unplayable if you want to hit again right away. But don't call it a "provisional" and then "opt" not to look for it if your provisional goes well. That's what they tried on the Big Break - and it didn't fly there either.

[saltman]

Again, like my par five example, intentionally not looking for a ball because you happened to hit a really good shot with your provisional strikes me as shady. It's against the general concept behind the game of golf, even if it's not necessarily against the rules.

Once again as I mentioned we disagree far more than I can believe. I played competitive golf at a very high level as well and I just don't view this as being shady in the least bit. If the player hits a miraculous shot and saves bogey (or in the rare case par) kudos, nice job. What I think is out of the spirit of the game is to search for a ball in an attempt to ensure a player will be penalized

more . I think THATS bush league. I don't care if it happened on BB or not, its not how I will teach my kids to play. Go beat your opponent by focusing your own game. I am not trying to get all bent out of shape, I just don't know how in one breath you can say its "stupid" to not search for you ball and then in the next breath point out an example in which it clearly isn't better. You have to declare it was a provisional before you hit the ball. Its not as if you knew you were going to hit a phenomenal shot, you always hope before you hit the provisional that you will in fact find your ball. So its actually "stupid" (but apparantly better ettiquette??) to declare it unplayable immediately, there is alwasy the odd chance that it kicked out and became playable. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that if the ball is in plain sight it shouldn't be played. But to go look for someone's ball in the weeds AFTER (or should I say because) they hit a great provisional shot is pure bush league.

[iacas]

If the player hits a miraculous shot and saves bogey (or in the rare case par) kudos, nice job.

That's not really what I'm getting at.

I'm against hitting a PROVISIONAL, which implies that you're going to look for your first ball, then giving up when you happen to hit a good shot. It's a "have your cake and eat it too" situation that, while legal (it's also legal for your opponent to look for your ball), is somewhat iffy in my book. But how often has it ever come up in my group? Never. Heck, that's why I keep citing Big Break - cuz it happened there. That's the only time I can think of it happening. And FWIW, they all thought it was shady too. If you fully intend to play the provisional and not look for the first one before you hit the provisional, just call it unplayable, drop, and hit. To "decide" after you hit your provisional that you're not going to look for it skims the rules of a player declaring his ball lost (which he can't do).

What I think is out of the spirit of the game is to search for a ball in an attempt to ensure a player will be penalized

Again, given that the player has three possibly better options he didn't have before, looking for their ball doesn't in any way "ensure" that they'll be penalized more. It may save them strokes, as it did in the example I provided of a guy hitting the water against me with his provisional.

Plus, the guy might hit a better shot the second (third) time (original, provisional, penalty for unplayable). Case in point: I accidentally teed off on a par three before my opponent, who had the honor. Put my tee shot to ten feet. He hit and then had me play again, as was his right. Didn't piss me off - was perfectly his right. It just happened to be the wrong decision for him as I put my second to five feet.

Go beat your opponent by focusing your own game.

It doesn't guarantee a higher score. Again, stroke and distance is the worst possible penalty. Phil saved par. My kid tied me when he'd have lost otherwise. Ricky Barnes hit it in the hay repeatedly over the week at Bethpage and got good breaks. They can occur. And a lie doesn't have to be too great to be able to save TWO shots.

I am not trying to get all bent out of shape, I just don't know how in one breath you can say its "stupid" to not search for you ball and then in the next breath point out an example in which it clearly isn't better.

When have I pointed out a situation in which it wasn't better to search for your ball? It's always better to search for your ball. You have four options instead of one, and the three you gain all have the potential to be better.

Its not as if you knew you were going to hit a phenomenal shot, you always hope before you hit the provisional that you will in fact find your ball.

You said you don't even bother to look. And you're seemingly coming to that conclusion after hitting a decent shot with your provisional.

But to go look for someone's ball in the weeds AFTER (or should I say because) they hit a great provisional shot is pure bush league.

Yeah, again, I don't really think so. They hit a provisional assuming it was lost. I think there's an obligation to at least give it a little look-see.

The over-riding principle behind the Rules of Golf is "play it as it lies." I'm all for taking advantage of the rules where appropriate, but this "have your cake and eat it too" is crap. If you're not going to look, call it unplayable and take your stroke and distance. If you're going to hit a provisional, look for it regardless of the outcome of your next shot. Make a decision and be man enough to stick to it. Now that I realize how much I'm repeating myself, I'm done.

[saltman]

Final point.

Provisional does not imply you are going to search, it implies the ball is already LOST! Searching for the ball is very clearly at everyone's discretion.

You are correct, its usually better to find it, except when it isn't.

[iacas]

I was going to be dumb, but I can't let something as patently wrong as this stand:

Provisional does not imply you are going to search, it implies the ball is already LOST!

No, it doesn't imply that at all. The ball isn't lost until the conditions of "lost ball" are met. Emphasis added here:

Source: Definition of "provisional" A "provisional ball" is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

Source: Definition of "lost ball" a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a); or d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1); or e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

Taking a first stroke at a provisional ball doesn't satisfy any of those conditions. A second stroke would satisfy b so long as it's past the area where the first ball is likely to be. a you're forgoing, c you're forgoing by calling it a "provisional," d we haven't discussed, and e wouldn't be a provisional - substituted is "a ball put into play for the original ball that was either in play, lost, out of bounds or lifted."

[RC]

I don't see anything shady about looking for a potentially lost ball of an opponent at any time -- to determine its true situation. I personally feel an obligation to look for every result of a shot, my own or a competitors'. I actually have an obligation to the field in a tournament to verify the rules were properly followed.

Everyone has the right to return to the previous spot and replay a stroke with the proper penalty or to follow the rules that might apply for relief, but you first need to know the result of the shot. There is nothing in the rules that I know that suggests anything about not looking for a ball except for the time beyond the 5 minute limit. I don't think you are compelled to look for a potentially lost or ball OB or in a hazard if the player has abandoned the search, but at that point, the proper declaration of the situation should be made. It is not a choice of dubious possibilities.

[RC]

And I should have clarified, I don't think it is quite in the spirit of the game to play a second ball, decide it is a great shot and then declare you are taking it before announcing your intention about the first ball. If you say the fate of the first ball may be lost, OB, or whatever, I think you should make an effort to determine the outcome before accepting a great second ball and just saying, "forget the first ball, I'm taking the second one." Even if the second one is a hole-out on a driveable par four, I think you would need to clearly stated before you hit the second one if you are abandoning the first one.

[saltman]

apologies, you are correct I should have said it implies it may be lost. You win.

However....to your point, taking it upon yourself to search for your opponents ball when by the very definition you presented below is the responsibility of the player or the player's caddie is, in my opinion, is just poor form. Just like calling a penalty on someone for inadvertantly stealing honors. Its just petty bush league. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself.

Again, I am not talking about a ball that is clearly in play. I am talking about a ball that has little chance of actually being found. Some players simply want to take their medicine and move on with their round rather than spend 5 minutes looking for a ball with a bad swing festering in their head.

I don't agree with your opinion of this person being shady as if there is no gray area here. There are situations when it could be shady yes, but not all and in my opinion the measure of that is if it is very clear the ball is likely to be lost.

Feel free to call me shady or a person who does not play by the spirit of the game if you so choose. Somehow I have been able to generate a hell of a lot of friends from my years as a competitive golfer so I doubt I have done too many things wrong unless I just manage to find the shady players as friends.

[saltman]

And I should have clarified, I don't think it is quite in the spirit of the game to play a second ball, decide it is a great shot and then declare you are taking it before announcing your intention about the first ball. If you say the fate of the first ball may be lost, OB, or whatever, I think you should make an effort to determine the outcome before accepting a great second ball and just saying, "forget the first ball, I'm taking the second one." Even if the second one is a hole-out on a driveable par four, I think you would need to clearly stated before you hit the second one if you are abandoning the first one.

If anything if I actually holed out or even hit a great shot, I would likely give it a cursory search.

As an opponent, I would ask if the player wants help finding his/her ball. Its his/her right and responsibility to search.

[RC]

And I understand your position as well and don't want to imply you are any kind of shady player -- that would be out of character it sounds, for both of us. That was not my intention if you are refering to what I wrote. I was only talking about the situation where the result of the second shot changes a person's intention toward the first shot. Hope that is understood and not misintrepreted. If the second ball was a provisional, then I help look for the first one, to determine its fair outcome.

Admittedly, in casual golf, it would not be unusual for pace of play for someone to simply say, "let's not look for the first one, I'll take my medicine and play the second one." In that case, intent was changed from playing a provisional to abandoning the ball and playing a new ball that is in play, something better to announce before hand, as you have said. This is a reasonable discussion, and I should not have used adjectives about anyone's intent. However, it is always best to be clear about what you intend to do. No offense was intented.

[Fourputt]

Fourputt, this goes back to the OP. The player had hit the shot into an area where there were 3 possibilities a. the ball is OB b. the ball is in water hazard c. the ball is okay. His best guess was OB so he hit a provisional. When he got there he looked and found it in water.

No. Your are right that he could have played the provisional, and if played from a point at or nearer the hole than where the original was likely to be found then it becomes the ball in play. But if his original ball is found before he does that then the provisional is abandoned and he takes whatever steps are necessary with the original ball. Declaring the original ball unplayable does not make the provisional ball the ball in play, it makes it abandoned.

Even if the other player finds it, you can still deem it unplayable. IF you tee it off into the fescue and call it unplayable, there is no point in them looking for it because it is not "lost".

And if that happens, you proceed from there under Rule 28. The provisional ball is abandoned.

So if I hit a ball and see it roll into the weeds, then immediately drop another and hit that, the original ball is "lost." So I didn't "decide" it was lost, but I didn't attempt to find it and the act of dropping and hitting another officially makes it lost, according to the definition of "lost ball" that I'm reading. Right?

Yes. As long as you didn't declare the second ball to be a provisional ball.

There is nothing shady about playing by the rules, either by the player who chooses not to search because he played a great shot with his provisional ball; nor by the competitor who chooses to search and find the "lost" ball and force the player to abandon that provisional. The only thing that I consider shady is violating a rule to gain an advantage.

[saltman]

RC, no offense taken at all. I understand what you are saying, I totally understand what iacas is saying. I just don't think its so black and white.

Anyway, I think we both treat our opponents they way we would appreciate being treated. I think a lot of it is situational, depends on how well you know the course etc. They are places on my home course that I have never ever found a ball (at least not my own) nor could it possibly be played.

It is rare to actually benefit from the rules. They seem to have thought of everything.