Rules Question: Water/Provisional

[albatross]

I just wanted to say that this has been a very interesting thread. I've learned a lot here. So here's another question:

If you decide to look for your opponent's ball, do you still have 5 minutes? I realize this would be a jerk move but I'm just wondering the rule?

If you think your opponent's ball is not lost, how long can you look?

[Slim 11]

The question is confusing. How could you

Fourputt, this goes back to the OP. The player had hit the shot into an area where there were 3 possibilities a. the ball is OB b. the ball is in water hazard c. the ball is okay. His best guess was OB so he hit a provisional. When he got there he looked and found it in water.

His question then was, if he didn't look and find it, could he have just declared it OB (or unplayable) and continue with his provisional, having never searched for the original.

[M2R]

The question is confusing. How could you

I think he meant "I didn't look for it so subsequently didn't find it".

I think this is tricky though. If your ball was clearly visible in the hazard and you proceeded to play the provisional you would be cheating. If your opponent had seen it and called it to your attention after you played a stroke on the provisional, you would have had to proceed under 26-1 and added two strokes for playing the wrong ball (I think). If it wasn't clearly visible but your opponent found it after you played a stroke on the provisional ... no idea.

[iacas]

Player A is faced with a 10-foot downhill (I think birdie) putt to a hole on the precipice of the false front of an elevated green. The player misses the putt, the ball rolls down the false front and comes to rest some 25-30 yards off and 20 feet below the green. The player chose to play the ball as it lied, but left the pitch shot about 10 feet short and the ball rolled all the way back to his feet. He is now hitting 5 from 25 yards off the green whereas he could have declared it unplayable from the get-go and played his 5th shot from 10 feet (and much more carefully this time). Within the rules? Yes. Would it be frowned upon by the other players? Perhaps -- I guess it depends on where he finished.

I think the assumption there is that the player can get within 10 feet - and potentially leave the ball below the hole - with his chip.

But if the player wants to declare his ball unplayable, no, I don't think it'd be frowned upon. I think most of the other players would think he was stupid for doing that, but frowned upon? No. It's his choice. It's within the rules.

So lets say I had not looked for my ball and found it in the water. I then declare it OB, play my provisional and take a 5? Would that be correct?

You can't declare a ball OB, and a ball that's in the water is in the water hazard, not OB (unless the water it's in is OB, of course). You can't "declare" a ball OB any more than you can declare it lost. It's either OB or it's not.

This is why I am not sure I agree that its shady to just not look.

It's stupid not to look because, you never know, your ball might be sitting in a place where you can play it. Worst case, you take the same penalty you'd take otherwise: stroke and distance. Or maybe you get to play it or maybe you just take a stroke and a two-clublength or ball-hole-line type drop.

Looking (and potentially finding) your ball gives you options. Re-hitting gives you none.

Its more shady if you your opponent starts looking after I clearly decided the ball is lost.

You cannot decide that your ball is lost!!! And if I'm someone's opponent, I'm going to look for a ball for as long as they are, up to five minutes, because it's my duty. If they stop looking for a ball and give up, I quite likely will too because they're opting to take the stiffest penalty there is. In Big Break, the Europe vs. USA one, the American team hit a ball that they thought was lost. They hit a provisional and nearly holed it. The Brits found the American's ball, so their provisional became a non-item and they faced had to play the found ball as it was. The only thing the American team could have done was immediately declare their first ball unplayable, but they tried to get the benefit of both sides: a provisional only in case their first ball was found in an okay position, and after they hit a great shot, they tried to prevent their opponents for looking for the ball (only because they'd hit a great shot). So you can't prevent your opponent for looking for your ball unless you declare yours unplayable, at which point if you hole out or hit a great shot, kudos to you.

My thoughts...."Gee thanks for finding it in this knee high fescue where two club lengths puts me in calf high fescue and I have to hit backwards to get out! What's that you say, oh I can go back and re-tee AGAIN, okay I will do that, would have been nice not to walk all the way back facing the pressure of another good swing just to salvage a potential double bogey."

Well, those are the rules. And remember you could always end up with a drop like Phil got in the U.S. Open on the sixth hole, dropping it backwards on the line from the hole to the ball's position, in a very, very clean lie.

[iacas]

Fourputt, this goes back to the OP. The player had hit the shot into an area where there were 3 possibilities a. the ball is OB b. the ball is in water hazard c. the ball is okay. His best guess was OB so he hit a provisional. When he got there he looked and found it in water.

And the answer would be no: you can't declare your ball OB.

[M2R]

If you think your opponent's ball is not lost, how long can you look?

Short answer, until they can properly get another ball into play.

If you really DON'T want a ball to be found, I think it's best to simply declare it unplayable and replay the shot and avoid all these issues.

[iacas]

If you decide to look for your opponent's ball, do you still have 5 minutes? I realize this would be a jerk move but I'm just wondering the rule?

It's five minutes from the start of the search. The start is defined as when the player gets to the area and begins searching (or something like that). It's not five minutes from when you begin searching.

Again, there's almost no advantage to NOT finding your ball. Worst case, stroke and distance - exactly the penalty you would have hit your provisional under. And there are three possible better outcomes: ball is fine, dropping within two clublengths is fine, dropping on the hole-ball line is fine.

[zeg]

I don't see how it's shady to use the rules. The rules say that you can always replay a shot via stroke and distance. If it's your best option, you'd be a fool to try to be a hero and get out of an impossible situation. The rules will punish you more often than they'll reward you, so you might as well take what you can get when you can.

Also, with respect to taking stroke and distance without bothering to look for your ball, if I were in a tournament where serious money was riding on a couple strokes, you bet I'd look for the ball every time. It might be in a better position/lie than it looked from the tee. Out having fun, if it's in deep woods, for the sake of keeping pace I'll probably just forget about it.

[saltman]

This is starting to become a bit of an ettiquette discussion, maybe abit off topic but still valuable.

Personally, I would only help an opponent search for his ball if he is actively searching for it as well. If he hit a provisional and simply walks up and hits his provisional ball, I would assume he feels that is his best approach. I would think that would be perfectly acceptable to just about anyone if the odds of actually finding the ball are low to begin with. Again, the only real time I can see this come into play is in deep, thick fescue.

[Slim 11]

Short answer, until they can properly get another ball into play.

This answers the other question too. You can't declare a ball OB but you can declare it unplayable. To the OP, the only way to have played your "provisional" was to declare the first ball unplayable, then the "provisional" actually becomes the ball in play immediately and not a "provisional".

You didn't do this. I am sure your hope was that the original ball was safe. Therefore your actions were correct in dropping, taking penalty and carding 6 when you found it in the water hazard.

[Slim 11]

I wouldn't necessarily call it shady to declare a ball unplayable in any circumstances. There are very few cases where this would benefit the player in any foreseeable way. Generally speaking, as someone else said, I would call it stupid if you have an opportunity to play it and don't.

[saltman]

Looking (and potentially finding) your ball gives you options. Re-hitting gives you none.

Its amazing how often you and I disagree. First of all this happens more often than you give it credit for, apparantly just not at the courses you play. I frequently play links style course where fescue can run up the sides of the hole nearly from tee to green, which makes line of sight worthless. IF you find your ball, the best you can typically do is pitch out sideways and you run the risk of it not getting out to the fairway. If I hit it in there, I immediately hit a provisional and don't even bother looking for the ball. This has never bothered any of my playing opponents who typically do exactly the same thing. I just don't see how that is shady in the least bit and from everything I can read is PERFECTLY within the rules. And yes, it was a decision to respectively allow the ball to be deemed lost.

Now if one of them decided the ball could be found and subsequently took it upon themselves to go look for the ball and found it. I wouldn't necessarily be pissed as its their right, but its a hell of a lot more shady to me than not looking! At that point as an opponent you are cold blooded. You know the best I can do is likely make a miraculous bogey if found and playable, whereas perhaps my provisional affords me a safe double bogey. BUT, the biggest advantage to finding it is it opens up a much higher number. Now I may have to go back and put another ball in play. Furthermore you are making the decision to back every other group up on the course behind you even further. Bad form in my opinion.

[Slim 11]

Even if the other player finds it, you can still deem it unplayable. IF you tee it off into the fescue and call it unplayable, there is no point in them looking for it because it is not "lost".

[jonnythan]

I still don't understand whether there are any rules to deciding a ball is lost. It seems to me that the player can simply decide the ball is lost, drop, and hit.

[Slim 11]

I still don't understand whether there are any rules to deciding a ball is lost. It seems to me that the player can simply decide the ball is lost, drop, and hit.

You can't decide ot is lost. It either is or isn't. You CAN decide it is unplayable.

[jonnythan]

You can't decide ot is lost. It either is or isn't. You CAN decide it is unplayable.

So if I hit a ball and see it roll into the weeds, then immediately drop another and hit that, the original ball is "lost." So I didn't "decide" it was lost, but I didn't attempt to find it and the act of dropping and hitting another officially makes it lost, according to the definition of "lost ball" that I'm reading. Right?

[Slim 11]

So if I hit a ball and see it roll into the weeds, then immediately drop another and hit that, the original ball is "lost." So I didn't "decide" it was lost, but I didn't attempt to find it and the act of dropping and hitting another officially makes it lost, according to the definition of "lost ball" that I'm reading. Right?

Nope. It's not "lost" because you haven't looked for it. If you hit another ball (and this is all just semantics with the language) you are either hitting a provisional (which means you are going to look for your ball) or you are declaring the first ball unplayable and putting a new ball in play. In both instances you take stroke and distance penalty, but if you are declaring a provisional you have the option of trying to find the first and playing it from there or taking various relief options under the rules.

The problem with declaring it unplayable is that you have then lost all your options, so if you shank the next one you can't go try to find the first to play it. You have to deal with the second ball.

[jonnythan]

If you hit another ball (and this is all just semantics with the language) you are either hitting a provisional (which means you are going to look for your ball) or you are declaring the first ball unplayable and putting a new ball in play.

I don't think this is right.

According to the rules:

A ball is deemed "lost" if:

There is nothing here that requires the player to look for the ball. It simply says that the ball is deemed lost if you take the penalty and put another ball in play. You don't need to look, you don't need to play a provisional. You can simply put another ball in play from the original spot and the unlooked-for ball is "deemed lost."

If I'm mistaken, please explain why. Thanks :)