Is this a stroke?

[albatross]

My dad's home course has several holes that have drainage type ditches and generally really wet spots.

On some of the holes your ball will come to rest in water, in a ditch that is not marked on the card as a hazard or by any type of stake or line.

Is this casual water because it's not marked as a hazard?? Is it a stroke to remove your ball to nearest relief from the water?

What's the correct ruling here assuming there isn't a local rule?

[heiss30]

It is casual water. No penalty

[Slim 11]

The ditch fits the definition of a water hazard under USGA definitions, whether it has water or not. Penalty incurred.

Water Hazard
A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course . All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

When the margin of a water hazard is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the water hazard, and the margin of the hazard is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate a water hazard, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin. When the margin of a water hazard is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards.

A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.

Stakes used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard are obstructions.

Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard must be yellow.

Note 2: The Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting play from an environmentally-sensitive area defined as a water hazard.

[albatross]

So it doesn't have to be defined by a line or stakes?

So technically if it is dry on Thursday and there isn't water, the ditch isn't a water hazard, but if it rains that night and fills with water, it's a hazard on Friday?

I thought water on the course had to be specifically defined as a hazard either on the card or by stakes or it was casual water?

So explain the difference between a huge puddle in the fairway after a big storm or this depressed area in front of the green that has water after it rains hard.

How is one casual water and the other not, if neither are marked as a hazard.

Thanks!

[Slim 11]

26/3 Unmarked Water Hazard

Q. An unmarked ditch on the left of a hole is in bounds, but the left-hand margin is out of bounds. Accordingly, it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard under Rule 26-1b. A player's ball comes to rest in the ditch. Is the player restricted to playing the ball as it lies or proceeding under Rule 26-1a?

A. It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards — see Rule 33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).

I guess there may be a ruling somewhere defining how deep the ditch has to be. I'll look when I have a chance. The difference in your scenario is that the ditch is there for the purpose of drainage where as the fairway is flat and should not, under any reasonable circumstances, have water in play. There may be a local ruling at the course deeming the ditch not a hazard and allowing for relief if it has water in it.

[NotAStick]

According to a USGA publication (exact words)

Water Hazard
A “water hazard” is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface
drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing
water) and anything of a similar nature. All ground or
water within the margin of a water hazard is part of the water
hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically
upwards and downwards. Stakes and line defining the margins
of water hazards are in the hazards.

[iacas]

  albatross said:

So it doesn't have to be defined by a line or stakes?

No. Lazy course, but no.

  albatross said:

So technically if it is dry on Thursday and there isn't water, the ditch isn't a water hazard, but if it rains that night and fills with water, it's a hazard on Friday?

Whether it's wet or not at the time is, to my understanding, irrelevant.

If it's not wet but still "ditch-like" enough to be deemed a water hazard, you can play from it. Just don't ground your club. Call it luck that you caught it on a dry day.

  albatross said:

So explain the difference between a huge puddle in the fairway after a big storm or this depressed area in front of the green that has water after it rains hard.

Uhm, neither are ditches? Both sound like casual water to me...

[2bGood]

Casual water - but i am surpised the the course doesn't have a local rule about it

[saltman]

What about an unmarked drainage ditch in the middle of the fairway?

Whats even more interesting is that if it is unmarked and dry I presume you would still not be able to ground your club. That could get confusing.

I love how its the responsibility of the committee, BUT not really.

[microcrayfish]

You could just ask someone at the course what the ruling is. There might be a local rule in effect that you're not aware of and you're better off getting a ruling from the people who operate the course, which will be the correct one for this situation, rather than trying to figure it out for yourself by asking around on the internet.

[NotAStick]

  microcrayfish said:

You could just ask someone at the course what the ruling is. There might be a local rule in effect that you're not aware of and you're better off getting a ruling from the people who operate the course, which will be the correct one for this situation, rather than trying to figure it out for yourself by asking around on the internet.

Yep, go to the local committee, or ask the local head pro.

They will have probably had the question before and if not, they need to do something about it.