Question about forged irons

[Golfaway]

So forging is supposed to be superior to casting, as in forging the club head is made from one piece of metal that is bent, heated and pressurized to become the shape desired. While in cast irons, the molten metal is poured into casts that have the shape of the club head and left to cool.

That being said, I have a small question. The start point in the forging process, the one piece of metal that is turned into the club head, how is it made in the first place?? Because if that piece of metal is made by casting (which I cannot see any other way for), then the whole process is pointless.

So..?

[Cussin hacker]

Much more complicated that it seems. I'll leave it for someone else to explain though.

[imtomtomim]

look up online how metalic elements are extracted from ore and produced. I'm sure you can find a cool video or something.

[lumpuckeroo]

So forging is supposed to be superior to casting, as in forging the club head is made from one piece of metal that is bent, heated and pressurized to become the shape desired. While in cast irons, the molten metal is poured into casts that have the shape of the club head and left to cool.

I don't know that I would say forging is superior, IMHO they are just two different ways to make clubs. Forging clubs tends to be softer then cast clubs, but that is not to say forging is superior, I would just say different.

I have friends that hit my forged clubs and don't like them, feel they are to mushy, so it is more a matter of preference.

[RCF]

Interesting stuff from Mizuno's web site:

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/forgingahead.php

The conventional wisdom is that there's no difference. I think forged is better so it must be psychological.

[capo]

great stuff on that mizuno website!

[SpringBokVol]

That is really interesting.

However, casting can't be that bad as the most popular wedges on tour are cast - Vokey Spin Milled

[GaijinGolfer]

So forging is supposed to be superior to casting, as in forging the club head is made from one piece of metal that is bent, heated and pressurized to become the shape desired. While in cast irons, the molten metal is poured into casts that have the shape of the club head and left to cool.

The difference is that with cast clubs, they pour molten metal into a mold; so theres more air pockets in the metal.

In the case of forging, they use a press to pound the metal into its shape and that process pounds the air pockets out of the metal. The difference in feel is in the air pockets

That is really interesting.

The only reason Vokeys are the most popular is because of Achushnet's marketing hype and that they will sponsor anyone and everyone to use their stuff.

If youve ever tried a forged wedge, youd never want another Vokey.

[iacas]

The difference is that with cast clubs, they pour molten metal into a mold; so theres more air pockets in the metal.

Wrong. Cast clubs don't have air pockets in them.

The only reason Vokeys are the most popular is because of Achushnet's marketing hype and that they will sponsor anyone and everyone to use their stuff.

Wrong. Pros who are on contract with other companies still play Vokey wedges. They're cast because even pros can't tell the difference in feel (or it's so minimal they don't care), and cast clubs are easier to make, so they can get new models made fairly readily. Pros demand a lot from their short game - it's what wins tournaments for them - and they overwhelmingly use Vokey wedges whether they're sponsored or not.

Yet another example of you bashing Titleist. You're like a spurned lover or something. Pro-Titleist (hence the username) when you signed up, then you drank Mizuno's Kool-Aid or something and now you leap at opportunities to bash your former love. Mizunos are great, but gee whiz, that doesn't make your former flame a dirty girl.

[lumpuckeroo]

That is really interesting.

I heard an interview with Bob Vokey several weeks ago, he said the reason they use cast wedges is he can use one basic "mold" and then grind the club to meet what ever specs the tour pro requires or for that matter anyone requires. Not that forged wedges can't be ground, but that was his prefered method.

[goblue107501]

No one can really tell the difference between cast and forged. Most people think that forged is better because most 'players' clubs are forged. The way things are made now there really isn't much difference. If you were to make a club with the same characteristics, one forged, one cast, it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference. I think the perception is that cast isn't as good because that is what is used on the majority of GI irons. If you hit a Mizuno MP-67 and a Callaway Big Bertha, sure you could tell the difference. But the difference is the size and weighting, not forged or cast.

[iacas]

No one can really tell the difference between cast and forged.

Right. Not even PGA Tour pros. What a timely blog post

this turned out to be :

Source: Terry Koehler In the 1980s, blind tests were conducted with tour players, having them hit identical unbranded irons – some cast, some forged, but all made of the same material and featuring the exact same muscle back design. None of them could tell the difference!!!

[Golfaway]

Very valuable info guys, but still my original question remains unaddressed.
In that Mizuno website about forging, you see them getting that iron rod and bending it, compressing, forming it and heating it till they get the shape desired. But my question is: that original iron rod, how was it made???

Does that mean that the original iron rod could have been made by casting, ie: could have the bubbles and I donno what, but the process of forging the club head alters it's structure and kicks the bubbles out?

[alf174]

The benefit of forging is not just the removal of the air bubbles (porosity) but the constant beating of the hot metal allows the material's molecules to align themselves into a stronger matrix. Also, impurities in the steel are beaten out of the forged piece of steel; that's what those sparks are. But this additional strength from working the steel comes at a higher expense than a casting; it takes longer to process. Note that impurities are not removed from a casting and porosity (the aforementioned air bubbles) is a quality control problem in any cast metal.

(how timely, i'm currently working with one of GM's casting plants)

[HytrewQasdfg]

Source: Terry Koehler In the 1980s, blind tests were conducted with tour players, having them hit identical unbranded irons – some cast, some forged, but all made of the same material and featuring the exact same muscle back design. None of them could tell the difference!!!

The difference is due not to the process (cast vs. forged) but due to the hardness of the metal. A cast iron made of a soft metal, and a forged iron made of the same soft metal will have the same soft feel (and workability and everything else golfers attribute to forged irons.)

Casting can be done with metals of any hardness, but forging is generally done with softer metals. Hence, forged irons have a reputation for a softer feel. PS, I have head the stuff about air pockets before also. I was told the air pockets on a cast club may affect where the sweet spot is on the face of the club or create a dead spot in certain areas. How true? I don't know.

[powermatt99]

In the past, one might argue that cast clubs (or any medal instrument) were not up to snuff with their forged counterparts because of tiny air bubbles, residual sand, fissures, or other anomalies. To my knowledge, however, technology has significantly closed the gap between forged and cast.

I tried Vokeys when I went wedge shopping. They were excellent but had a different feel than many of the other wedges I tried. I ended liking the feel of the MacGregors better. It would be far fetched, however, for me to say it had anything to do with the different manufacturing processes of each. There are so many other variables when it comes to clubs it is almost impossible to account for subtle nuances.

[iacas]

The difference is due not to the process (cast vs. forged) but due to the hardness of the metal.

As you note, you can cast clubs with reasonably soft metals these days.

PS, I have head the stuff about air pockets before also.

My beef with saying "air pockets" is that it implies that the pockets are substantial. They're microscopic - many at the atomic type sizes - and any clubs with "pockets" bigger than that are rejected from reputable, name-brand companies. The technology of casting has come a long way.

In the past, one might argue that cast clubs (or any medal instrument) were not up to snuff with their forged counterparts because of tiny air bubbles, residual sand, fissures, or other anomalies. To my knowledge, however, technology has significantly closed the gap between forged and cast.

Edit: I should have waited. Just what I was saying.

[The Wilderness]

To answer your inital question, yes the inital ingot that forged clubs are made from are initally cast into simple shapes (cylinder, rectangle, ect). Almost all metals are cast from melt into ingots before use, with tungsten and tantalum being two exceptions that are hot pressed and sintered.

"The benefit of forging is not just the removal of the air bubbles (porosity) but the constant beating of the hot metal allows the material's molecules to align themselves into a stronger matrix. Also, impurities in the steel are beaten out of the forged piece of steel; that's what those sparks are. But this additional strength from working the steel comes at a higher expense than a casting; it takes longer to process. Note that impurities are not removed from a casting and porosity (the aforementioned air bubbles) is a quality control problem in any cast metal."

This is partially correct, the beating (or working) of the hot metal in a single direction causes grains to align and elongate, as well as introducing plastic deformation and dislocation motion. This process may result in a slightly more dense structure and harder material but does not beat impurites out. No material is free from impuritis and imperfections, the sparks are not impurities but simply the result of hitting two pieces of metal together at high temperatures and forces. Impurities and imperfections that are small enough strengthen metals.

Casting can be done with metals of any hardness, but forging is generally done with softer metals. Hence, forged irons have a reputation for a softer feel.

Liquid metals do not have hardness and the hardness of a metal can be easily changed with heat treatments, cold work, and grain size. You can cast almost any metal that has a melting point low enough to easily work with. Much of the time forging is not the process of choice because of the high cost of casting molds.

Again, to the inital question, forged clubs come from cast ingots but they are more than likely heat treated and have a nice equiaxed structure. Forging does not beat the bubbles out as they are not very large. Large scale metal suppliers have very well tested and careful processes that minimize voids and bubbles such as casting in a vacuum. I think that I am going to the golf shop to buy a ping and a mizzy, cross section and etch them and show you guys the structureal differences between the two materials.