I tried to call a penalty today...

[Cussin hacker]

Debate only means that it is being discussed. The wording in the Rules is quite clear. Your lack of comprehension is simply due to the lack of making an effort to understand what is being expressed in the rulebook.

Now your getting personal fourputt. I'll be the first to admitt I need to know the rules better, but you know it all. Jay-birds example is a good one that yes, it does seem grey to me. Even if you think not the fact remains that even others who know the rules very well, may with certain issues, disagree with your interpritation. PGA officails have even had this happen. Of course you are right and they are wrong........ no grey area there.

[Jay-Bird]

While against the rules to ask club selection,I think you can ask yardage to the hole. If someone relies on what someone else hit, they`re a dumbass.

Just for you...

Rule 8-1 decision #9....

8-1/9 Misleading Statement About Club Selection Q. A (Rob) made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling? A. A (Rob) was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

[Fourputt]

Now your getting personal fourputt. I'll be the first to admitt I need to know the rules better, but you know it all. Jay-birds example is a good one that yes, it does seem grey to me.

All I'm saying is that the wording in the rule is quite clear. The confusion is all in your head. Just because you don't understand it, that does not make the wording of the rule flawed. By that logic, any time you don't understand something that you read, the text would be deemed flawed simply by your lack of comprehension. Someone who does understand it would disagree just as we are doing here, yet you would still argue with the expert. It's a situation which can never be resolved because you are so fixed in the certainty of your rightness that you can't see the fallacy in your logic.

Any reasonable person would understand the difference between casually batting a ball back to the range as opposed to setting up, taking one's stance and making a true practice stroke at that ball. If you want to continue this silly and unreasonable argument, have fun, but I'm out of it....

[mc0388]

It is a penalty but I don't agree with the way you handled it. You should have kept your mouth shut and beat him with his cheating ways IMO.

I agree with Leftygolfer

Yep, not sure how old you are so Ill keep this polite. You handled this like a whiny little girl....

[Cussin hacker]

It's all good Fourputt. Just a diffrents of opinion. Plenty of them here eh!

[zeg]

All I'm saying is that the wording in the rule is quite clear. The confusion is all in your head. Just because you don't understand it, that does not make the wording of the rule flawed.

You don't seem to understand the argument being made. It's not that the rules are "flawed" per se, it's simply that there are a lot of them, and things can be confusing when several apply to a situation. Personally, I don't believe for a second that

every conceivable event has a uniquely specified resolution in the rules. Also, in the vein of your comments, just because "experts" understand it, doesn't make the text perfect. Honestly, how do you explain the need for the Decisions (which total a lot more words than the rules themselves) if the Rules are complete? Remember, every one of those decisions arose because of a disagreement or question about the rules. Are we to believe that every single decision came about because some idiot didn't bother to read the rules? If you're arguing that the Rules + Decisions are complete, how lucky we are to live in the time when the Decisions are finally done and no more will be issued!

Any reasonable person would understand the difference between casually batting a ball back to the range as opposed to setting up, taking one's stance and making a true practice stroke at that ball. If you want to continue this silly and unreasonable argument, have fun, but I'm out of it....

Sorry, no. There's a reason there is a decision posted to clarify this, and that's because it wasn't obvious to someone how much of a stroke was necessary to qualify as practice. Even with the rule, is it a violation if I have both hands on the club but I don't set my feet and it's still casual? What if I stop for a minute to wipe my forehead so my feet are set, but not in a "normal" position, then I use both hands to flick the ball? What if I (as someone suggeseted above) set up left handed and do a backward swing that I consider a joke but my playing partner believes was a real stroke? Exactly, precisely, with no judgement involved, how close to a true stroke can I go before my casual flick is no longer a casual flick?

Be careful when you introduce a "reasonable person." There are many different breeds of "reasonable people."

[Ty Haegs]

why not just throw the ball to take away all suspicion? lol

[Jay-Bird]

I agree with Leftygolfer

I'm not seeing how trying to get a Rule enforced in a match is being a girl. I called the penalty, I was disagreed with, I sought a Rules official (by phone) and was given the WRONG RULING.

The point of the post was that the Pro screwed me over. It's NOT my fault that my opponent committed a violation, it's my duty to call him on it. It's not my fault or my opponent's fault that the pro made the wrong call. I was just opening a dialog. Thanks for participating.

[mc0388]

I agree with Leftygolfer

Not sure who commented on the name calling thing,,,,,,,,BUT I dont think Im tough for internet 'name calling'. You called someone out for asking someone what club to hit. Seriously, you even called the pro shop for a ruling. Please tell me your opponent laughed at you... I bet the pro at the club house did! If your under the age of 18 I apologize in advance, if your older, WOW...

[Jay-Bird]

Not sure who commented on the name calling thing,,,,,,,,BUT I dont think Im tough for internet 'name calling'. You called someone out for asking someone what club to hit. Seriously, you even called the pro shop for a ruling. Please tell me your opponent laughed at you... I bet the pro at the club house did! If your under the age of 18 I apologize in advance, if your older, WOW...

You obviously play a lot of competitive golf. Rules are rules.

[mc0388]

You obviously play a lot of competitive golf. Rules are rules.

Then why didnt the pro favor on your side?

Not a rule, but definitely bad etiquette. Using your mobile phone on the course. No Disturbance or Distraction Players should always show consideration for other players on the course and should not disturb their play by moving, talking or making unnecessary noise. Players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

[Jay-Bird]

Then why didnt the pro favor on your side?

He's more concerned with drinking beer and banging the 20-years-younger cart girls than he is with the Rules of the game. Earlier in the season I asked him about a Rule and he gave me wrong information... he's just a moron. You'd probably love him.

Not a rule, but definitely bad etiquette. Using your mobile phone on the course.

I made the call after we finished the hole in question, before we hit our tee shots. I was not loud, I don't yell into my cellphone, the phone never rang. Everything was calm - nothing on my end was distracting to anyone.

Making a phone call is not the same thing as having your phone ring during play. You're grasping at straws.

[mc0388]

I made the call after we finished the hole in question, before we hit our tee shots. I was not loud, I don't yell into my cellphone, the phone never rang. Everything was calm - nothing on my end was distracting to anyone.

I never intended to get in an argument with you. If your gonna win... WIN... It sounds like very bad form on the golf course, calling the pro shop for a ruling. You wouldn't of won if ruled in your favor, the other player would have lost!

Plus, now your the rules Nazi.

[sean_miller]

I never intended to get in an argument with you. If your gonna win... WIN... It sounds like very bad form on the golf course, calling the pro shop for a ruling. You wouldn't of won if ruled in your favor, the other player would have lost!

ixnay on the azinay

[iacas]

It's not that the rules are "flawed" per se, it's simply that there are a lot of them, and things can be confusing when several apply to a situation.

And Fourputt's argument is that simply because something is confusing to a group of people doesn't mean they're poorly written or they have grey areas.

Personally, I don't believe for a second that

Technically, they do, because the rules state that for anything that can't be covered, the general rule of equity should take over. As for when that last resort has actually been needed, well...

If you're arguing that the Rules + Decisions are complete, how lucky we are to live in the time when the Decisions are finally done and no more will be issued!

I don't think he's suggesting that even a little bit.

Even with the rule, is it a violation if I have both hands on the club but I don't set my feet and it's still casual?

You seem to have missed my earlier post. Golf is not a sport of calling penalties on others. If you take a practice stroke, and you know it, call the penalty on yourself and move on. If you don't know the rule and someone calls you on it, you should answer honestly whether you were practicing or just tidying up.

The Rules of Golf are based on honesty, not people trying to get away with stuff.

Be careful when you introduce a "reasonable person." There are many different breeds of "reasonable people."

Not on the internet. Good luck finding even one.

I never intended to get in an argument with you. If your gonna win... WIN...

Right, "if you're gonna win, win" is great right up until the other guy starts breaking rules. Duh.

But hey, that's fine. I'll play you and just concede every putt I've got to myself. For how much? You got $50k? What a joke.

[Fourputt]

Not sure who commented on the name calling thing,,,,,,,,BUT I dont think Im tough for internet 'name calling'. You called someone out for asking someone what club to hit. Seriously, you even called the pro shop for a ruling. Please tell me your opponent laughed at you... I bet the pro at the club house did! If your under the age of 18 I apologize in advance, if your older, WOW...

I never intended to get in an argument with you. If your gonna win... WIN... It sounds like very bad form on the golf course, calling the pro shop for a ruling. You wouldn't of won if ruled in your favor, the other player would have lost!

Have you EVER actually competed? Do you know anything about the Rules of Golf? The comments you made above would seem to indicate that the answer to both questions is a resounding NO. You wouldn't make such silly, uninformed statements if you knew what you are talking about. In a competition (or any other time), I will try my best to prevent anyone from incurring a penalty before it happens. I don't just stand there and watch him screw up, then call it. I will do my best to explain what he's doing wrong, then set him in the right direction. BUT.... if a player DOES breach a rule, I WILL call him on it.

Sorry, but that's how the game is supposed to be played.

[mc0388]

And Fourputt's argument is that simply because something is confusing to a group of people doesn't mean they're poorly written or they have grey areas.

First off, I apologize for the word I used in a previous post, definitely didn't mean it the way it was received (and I think you all know that!) BUT, you all are telling me that you wouldn't be upset if your opponent is on his cell phone with the pro at the club house for a rule infraction? To boot, the pro disagrees with your argument! I still think you handle the situation poorly!

[Dave H]

First off, I apologize for the word I used in a previous post, definitely didn't mean it the way it was received (and I think you all know that!)

It's already been proven that the pro gave the wrong decision so that argument fails.

I've been watching this thread for several days and I'm amazed at the seeming lack of integrity displayed in a number of golfers. Are you people really telling me that it doesn't bother you when someone you're in direct competition with breaks the rules? You would rather "let them off" than have your manhood downgraded or something ridiculous like that? I don't know about you, but I'm an ultra competitive person and if I'm in any competition with you, I don't care what, I'm not letting you get away with breaking the rules*. *unless you're my 4 year old son and we're playing candyland...