Big leaf on downhill green right behind the cup

[localhawaii]

So my golf buddies and I are all at the green and I have a long downhill slider to the cup. It was a windy day and there happen to be a large leaf behind the cup and I knew if I went long I would probably have hit the leaf and slowed down my ball. When one of my buddies went to pull the flag, I saw him motioning to grab the leaf and move it out of the way even though it was not in anyone's direct line to the cup. Anyhow, I told him to leave it there knowing that if i missed, i would probably run into. We all had a good laugh and sure enough I missed the cup and hit the leaf which probably kept it from rolling a good 4 feet.

This was all in fun, but I guess my question is, would I have been obligated to move the leaf? Thoughts?

[walk18]

no you don't have to move it.

[iacas]

I'm not entirely certain, however, that you can prevent someone else from picking it up.

Decision 22/6 speaks to this regarding someone else's golf ball:

Source: Decision 22/6
22/6 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted

Q. In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A. No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1. (Revised)

I'm going to think about this and look up some more rulings later. Gotta go to breakfast now.

[Jay-Bird]

If the leaf is there naturally, it's fine there - no obligation to move it (rub of the green).

You can not put a leaf (or a ball, or a coin...) in a position to influence the ball or to assist in any way.

You can not prevent someone else from removing the leaf, it's their green also.

[right handed phil mickelson]

It can be argued that since the other player was already reaching down to move the leaf, that it was ok for you to stop him. If you told him not to do it before the act, then that could be filed under rule 22/6 like Iacas said.

I think you're just fine.

[iacas]

It can be argued that since the other player was already reaching down to move the leaf, that it was ok for you to stop him. If you told him not to do it before the act, then that could be filed under rule 22/6 like Iacas said.

To be clear, 22/6 is regarding a ball in a position to help, and a ball isn't a loose impediment. I only cited 22/6 as the most relevant rule I could think of in a hurry. When I find the time, I intend to look more thoroughly to see what the rule might be. It might involve sand on the putting green or something like that, but I doubt it'll involve equipment, flagsticks, etc.

[tjy355]

... sure enough I missed the cup and hit the leaf which probably kept it from rolling a good 4 feet.

Thought: Dang, you must have some big leaves there in Hawaii!!

[Fourputt]

So my golf buddies and I are all at the green and I have a long downhill slider to the cup. It was a windy day and there happen to be a large leaf behind the cup and I knew if I went long I would probably have hit the leaf and slowed down my ball. When one of my buddies went to pull the flag, I saw him motioning to grab the leaf and move it out of the way even though it was not in anyone's direct line to the cup. Anyhow, I told him to leave it there knowing that if i missed, i would probably run into. We all had a good laugh and sure enough I missed the cup and hit the leaf which probably kept it from rolling a good 4 feet.

That is an interesting question. There is certainly nothing in the rules that says you have to move a loose impediment if you don't want to. As to whether you can stop your fellow competitor, I think that if it's your turn to play, then yes, you can stop him from taking any action. I know that I've read a decision sometime in the past where a player wanted to repair an old pitch mark, but because of its location, his fellow competitor or opponent (who was away) wanted it left alone as it might help to deflect his putt if he had misread the green. The decision upheld the FC's right to the lie and line of putt that his previous shot had given him. Had it not been his turn then the other player would have been allowed to repair the pitch mark.

It does get to be a bit of a risk... what if the ball comes to rest on the leaf after the first putt? To move the leaf would cause either the ball or the ball marker to move, incurring a penalty... would he then have to play the next stroke with the ball still resting on the leaf?

[iacas]

I think that if it's your turn to play, then yes, you can stop him from taking any action.

I don't know if you "can" literally stop him. He's allowed to pick up a leaf and throw it off the green. I think he has the right to do that at any time, and can ignore any request you make otherwise.

If you can find that decision regarding the pitch mark go ahead, because that may convince me otherwise of this, but the location of helpful things on the golf course like acorns, leaves, sticks, etc. don't seem to be the same as a pitch mark. And they're not - the former are loose impediments. The question is really whether you can make the request, I suppose. I lean towards "yes" but I'm still not 100% certain. Had it not been his turn then the other player would have been allowed to repair the pitch mark.

It does get to be a bit of a risk... what if the ball comes to rest on the leaf after the first putt? To move the leaf would cause either the ball or the ball marker to move, incurring a penalty... would he then have to play the next stroke with the ball still resting on the leaf?

And what penalty is that, exactly?

Source: USGA Rules of Golf, 23-1 "Loose Impediments" On the putting green, if the ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of removing a loose impediment, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the removal of the loose impediment. Otherwise, if the player causes the ball to move, he incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a.

[Jay-Bird]

I found it...

SOURCE: USGA Rules of Golf, 23-1/10 "Removal of Loose Impediments Affecting Player's Play" Q. A player with a downhill putt picks up loose impediments between his ball and the hole but leaves some behind the hole. An opponent or fellow-competitor wants to remove the impediments behind the hole as they may serve as a backstop, but the player objects. May the opponent or fellow-competitor remove the loose impediments behind the hole? A. No. When it is the player's turn to play, his opponent or a fellow-competitor has no right to remove loose impediments affecting the player's play if the player requests the opponent or fellow-competitor not to do so. If the opponent or fellow-competitor ignores the request, he is in breach of Rule 1-2. In match play, the opponent loses the hole. In stroke play, the fellow-competitor incurs a penalty of two strokes and, in equity (Rule 1-4), the player is entitled to replace the loose impediments. In the absence of a request not to remove loose impediments affecting the player's play, an opponent or fellow-competitor who does so incurs no penalty. In equity (Rule 1-4), the player is entitled to replace the loose impediments. (Revised)

[iacas]

I found it...

Yup. There you go. Thread closed.