What Causes A Draw?

[MiniMoe]

I don't try new things. I swing down the line with a square face... damn thing goes straight.... backwards. I guess I have to line up a little different.

[iacas]

Moe might be the best golfer on this entire forum and an open club face *to the target line* draw even for him is a tough pill to swallow.

And I know a lot of better golfers who disagree - golf skill is kind of irrelevant, and a lot of the best players in the world say they're doing one thing and may even think they're doing one thing, when they're doing something completely different.

Jack Nicklaus was asked by Andy Plummer (or maybe it was Mike Bennett) whether the ball started on the clubface or swing path. Jack immediately answered swing path, then found Andy (or Mike) later that evening to say he'd thought about it, and he wanted to change his answer.

I just don't believe that if you swing from inside to out with an open face, you hit a draw.

How not? OK, both using the target line for measurements:

a) clubface two degrees open b) swing path four degrees from the inside Bam: push-draw that should end up pretty close to the target. If you hit a ball: a) clubface square to target line b) swing path from the inside two degrees You'll miss the target left. Not by a lot - might still be putting or whatever - but it's a straight-draw.

Somewhere the face has to shut down a bit to produce the side spin needed for the draw.

Maybe you didn't read the earlier statements very well. The face is closed relative to the swing path, which are the only two things that affect sidespin. The clubface is open only relative to the target line.

And... if the club is way open and is working closed at the moment of impact, you are not actually doing it on feel, it is just a continuation of what was happening prior to impact.

The clubface is working closed on fades, too. Again, clubface angle doesn't change enough during impact to appreciably affect the sidespin of a golf shot.

[deronsizemore]

I think the part people are getting confused on is the "face is two degrees open" part. A swing path four degrees from the inside and a face two degrees open relative to the target means the face is now two degrees closed relative to the swing path. Seems like people are confusing the two degrees open part with being two degrees open relative to the swing path which would mean the face would then be open six degrees relative to the target.

Jack Nicklaus was asked by Andy Plummer (or maybe it was Mike Bennett) whether the ball started on the clubface or swing path. Jack immediately answered swing path, then found Andy (or Mike) later that evening to say he'd thought about it, and he wanted to change his answer.

I've read a few times on other sites that the initial starting direction of the ball flight is determined by the face angle. This doesn't make sense to me but I'm open to having it explained to me so that I can understand it.

If someone has an outside-in swing, i.e., over the top, how can a ball start off right of the target for a right handed person? The new thinking is that the initial starting direction of the ball flight is determined as much as 80% by the face angle and NOT the swing path. I don't see how you could start a ball right of the target with the clubface when the swing path is from outside-in? Same goes for an inside-out swing path. Even with an extremely closed clubface, I don't see how the ball can start off left of the target if you're approaching the ball from the inside?

[iacas]

I think the part people are getting confused on is the "face is two degrees open" part.

I think we've all tried to be clear about what things are relative to, but maybe you're right and people haven't read things quite correctly.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27083I've read a few times on other sites that the initial starting direction of the ball flight is determined by the face angle. This doesn't make sense to me but I'm open to having it explained to me so that I can understand it.[/quote] Read this thread: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27083 . I'll respond briefly but since this isn't the topic, please limit it or start another thread. The one I just linked to I'm trying to limit to more factual posts (though, admittedly, that seems to be resulting in nobody posting much at all).

If someone has an outside-in swing, i.e., over the top, how can a ball start off right of the target for a right handed person?

If their CFA is right of the target line, the ball starts right. Since they're over the top, the ball slices even more from there.

I don't see how you could start a ball right of the target with the clubface when the swing path is from outside-in?

Why not? Think about a lob. You aim the clubface pretty much at the target, cut across the ball like crazy for height, and the ball goes where the clubface was aimed, not where you were swinging to 45° left or whatever.

Same goes for an inside-out swing path. Even with an extremely closed clubface, I don't see how the ball can start off left of the target if you're approaching the ball from the inside?

And I don't see how you don't see it.

Perhaps you're getting confused by the phrase "approaching the ball." Put a club down behind a ball. Close the face 30 degrees. Where will you contact the golf ball? On the outside of the golf ball. If you swing inside-to-out 15 degrees you'll still make contact with the ball on the same spot - it'll just impart even MORE sidespin and deliver less power (a more glancing blow). I don't know if this illustration will work, but here you go (target is straight to the left): Closed clubface: •\ Open clubface: •/ Now in the second example, there's your open clubface. If your approach angle (from the inside) is greater than the angle which the face is open, the ball starts off right and draws. If it matches it, it's a straight push. If it's less (i.e. more out to in than the face angle), it starts right and fades or slices.

[deronsizemore]

Now in the second example, there's your open clubface. If your approach angle (from the inside) is greater than the angle which the face is open, the ball starts off right and draws. If it matches it, it's a straight push. If it's less (i.e. more out to in than the face angle), it starts right and fades or slices.

I do understand this and it's the way I've always understood the ball flight. There are two common points in your statement above: the approach angle is from the inside, and the ball starts off right of the target line. If you approach it from the inside, it starts off right of the target. From there, what it does while it's in the air is determined by the clubface angle relative to the path.

I've attached an image to attempt to explain what I'm thinking and why I can't see this whole clubface determines initial flight concept. Black line is the target line. The red line in the attachment is the swing path (inside-out). The club face is severely closed relative to the red line (swing path). So you're saying that the ball will take off along the green line since that is where the club face is pointed? This will be my last post on this topic since I know it's off topic. I'm curious though as to what finally changed your mind on this whole theory? In the link to the thread above it seems like you're still not sold on this whole idea but are maybe stuck somewhere in the middle? What finally made you a believer?

[iacas]

This will be my last post on this topic since I know it's off topic.

It is, so my reply is short.

If you approach it from the inside, it starts off right of the target.

Not necessarily. In your example, you'll hit a left-to-left shot. You could call it a "pull-draw" but that'll seem odd since you're swinging out at it... but anyway, it'll start left and then, obviously, hook.

Black line is the target line. The red line in the attachment is the swing path (inside-out). The club face is severely closed relative to the red line (swing path). So you're saying that the ball will take off along the green line since that is where the club face is pointed?

Not "on" the green line, but MUCH closer to the green line than the red line, yep. 85% closer, give or take 10%.