Mickelson, Harrington, Daly using PING wedges for grooves. Unfair advantage?

[pusher]

It's a bad rule from the beginning. The USGA should have thought it through or left well enough alone. The game didn't need this mess.

[iacas]

It's a bad rule from the beginning. The USGA should have thought it through or left well enough alone. The game didn't need this mess.

Again, opinion without any foundation. The USGA, on the other hand, supported their opinion with facts and studies, which you can read.

On to other matters: This is an interesting look back at the history behind the grandfathering of the Ping Eye 2. Here's why Phil is being a wad over this, when I still say he was one of the guys who might most benefit. And here's the definition of "spirit of the rules":

Source: Rules of Golf Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

By that logic, Scott McCarron violated the spirit of the rules.

[Shanks A Million]

By that logic, Scott McCarron violated the spirit of the rules.

Yes, in my opinion calling someone a cheater is much worse than using clubs that are within the rules.

I just wish the USGA would do one of a few things: One, toss out the Ping suit, it's no longer a valid point because the Ping case involved a different groove, and all clubs made prior to 2010 could really be argued to follow the same precident (the Ping case was never about square grooves, it was about the definition of the width of the groove)... Two, allow square grooves on wedges with more than, or equal to 64° of loft... Let me explain something about this. The new groove rule only applies to clubs of a certain loft. A club with less than 25° of loft may still have square grooves under the rules. Why not introduce a high loft category? It might be interesting to see how many players put a 64, or even a Feel 73° wedge in the bag if that were the case. You'd see massive flop shots, and that would take, in my opinion, just as much skill to master. The problem is not guys like Phil, it's the gougers. Let Phil and his buddies carry a high lofted X wedge, see what happens. Also, I expect we may see guys "sanding" their clubs before a shot from the rough, I.E. spitting on the face, taking a practice swing in some sandy lie, and using the resulting "sanded" face to get some spin. Locomotive engineers have been doing this for a hundred and fifty years when they need more traction, and I'm sure someone will figure something out.

[iacas]

One, toss out the Ping suit, it's no longer a valid point because the Ping case involved a different groove, and all clubs made prior to 2010 could really be argued to follow the same precident (the Ping case was never about square grooves, it was about the definition of the width of the groove)...

Yeah, that's the weird thing. My Vokey wedge from last year is not conforming either.

I guess the USGA didn't have the foresight and the settlement language must say something like "Ping Eye 2 clubs produced prior to xx/xx/xxxx will be allowed regardless of future rules changes." It's a settlement, and thus a contract, so PING could allow the USGA to change the terms of that contract, but I don't know why they would (I think they should, though). But anyway, the USGA didn't have the foresight that in 20 years they'd actually change the rule re: grooves, so the clubs are still "approved." They could have put a cap on it for 10 or 15 years.

Two, allow square grooves on wedges with more than, or equal to 64° of loft...

Nah. The USGA was/is considering banning wedges with lofts above 60°, remember? This may be a back door way to achieve that goal without specifically making it a "rule" (in addition to the other things this rule is meant to achieve).

Also, I expect we may see guys "sanding" their clubs before a shot from the rough, I.E. spitting on the face, taking a practice swing in some sandy lie, and using the resulting "sanded" face to get some spin.

That's very much against the Rules and someone doing that WOULD be cheating. I don't think we can expect to see that AT ALL.

[raycharles]

Again, opinion without any foundation. The USGA, on the other hand, supported their opinion with facts and studies, which you can read.

I support your opinion, but the rule is ridiculous. Here is Jack Nicklaus on the subject of the groove ruling:

"Some, including Jack Nicklaus, believe—or hope—that the subtle groove change will create a domino effect, causing players to switch to softer balls that spin more, which in turn will result in shorter drives off the tee and a greater emphasis on old-fashioned shot making. "With a softer ball, the game will change—and change for the better," Mr. Nicklaus said last week. "It will bring some of the great courses in the world that had become obsolete because the ball went so far back into play." This is all the information I need to formulate an opinion that the ruling is a bad one. I believe the 1988-89 cast Eye 2 (square grooves) were grandfathered-in. Eye 2 models after 1990 had the plus (+) symbol and different grooves. I am not certain they were approved. Perhaps you could help with that one Iacas. Thanks.

[Shanks A Million]

Nah. The USGA was/is considering banning wedges with lofts above 60°, remember? This may be a back door way to achieve that goal without specifically making it a "rule" (in addition to the other things this rule is meant to achieve).

I remember, and it was another in a line of stupid things they tried to do. Their track record is not so great, and although I agree with the groove rule, they've really opened a can of worms.

That's very much against the Rules and someone doing that WOULD be cheating. I don't think we can expect to see that AT ALL.

But almost impossible to enforce. I can clean my club with a wet rag, take a practice swing, and get some sand on the face. Totally legal. It's a gray area that someone is going to exploit, and don't try and tell me someone hasn't thought of a way to do it, cause you know these guys are not thrilled about losing a major title, or a half million dollars because they drew a bad lie. People rationalize their luck, and you and I both know money takes precedent over integrity.

[wolverine_man]

I can't remember the last time I saw a pro take a towel with him into the bunker or have his caddy toss him a damp towel to wipe off his club before blasting out. Mind you, you cannot ground your club in a bunker, which is considerd a hazard as per Rule 13-4. So I guess the pro will have to carry a bottle of sand along with that damp towel into the bunker. What are the odds that will happen?

[Shanks A Million]

I can't remember the last time I saw a pro take a towel with him into the bunker or have his caddy toss him a damp towel to wipe off his club before blasting out. Mind you, you cannot ground your club in a bunker, which is considerd a hazard as per Rule 13-4. So I guess the pro will have to carry a bottle of sand along with that damp towel into the bunker. What are the odds that will happen?

There's sand all over, it's under the grass. Many courses also sand divots, and use the same sand to overseed grass. You can always find some sand on a golf course.

[wolverine_man]

Nick Faldo: "What's Phil doing? Cryke, I think he's pouring his water bottle over his Eye 2 wedge and taking practice swings in that sand-filled divot before entering the bunker." "I think he's up to something."

[iacas]

[you:] the rule is ridiculous

Uhhh... I said I wasn't going to debate nonsense. You've managed to re-affirm my position on that.

I am not certain they were approved.

Eye 2+ irons were modified to conform with the rules THEN, so they're not approved for professional play now, no. That's all been covered in links posted previously.

But almost impossible to enforce.

No it's not. Players enforce a bunch of rules on themselves every time they play. It's a self-governing game.

I can clean my club with a wet rag, take a practice swing, and get some sand on the face. Totally legal.

No it's not. If you're brushing your club through the grass or sand to "put" stuff on the clubface you're violating the rules. That's not a grey area.

I think you're nuts, Shanks, on this one. If anything pros try to wipe off the clubface before they hit any shot. They'll never - not only because it's against the rules but because it'd be stupid to do so anyway - hit a shot with clumps of sand stuck to the ball. That'd be stupid. They'd rather have predictability than unpredictability.

[wolverine_man]

^^ Exactly. I was being sarcastic in my last post - I believe that was fairly evident, though.

[Fourputt]

Wait a minute. I believe they are the most popular irons in golf history. But, what do I know. I only own 7 sets.

Give it a rest. The PGA didn't change the rule, they don't have that authority. That was done jointly by the USGA and the R&A;, as are all rule changes. The new rule makes complete sense when you actually understand the game of golf. You are supposed to be rewarded for making a good shot and face the possibility of punishment for a bad one. A good tee shot ends up in the fairway. A bad one ends up in the rough. The player in the fairway should have some advantage over the player in the rough. The new rule accomplishes that goal to a tee.

I obviously didn't make myself clear. I am not saying that the players should revert back to the old wound balls. Or that players should be forced to use uniform technology, BUT thats precisely what the PGA is doing. I believe all tour players should take advantage of the advances in technology. That would INCLUDE grooves that offer better performance, i.e. spin. I find the groove ruling comical, at best. What is the primary reason for the groove ruling? Is it simply that players have the ability to spin the ball out of lies that were meant to punish them for errant shots? With that logic, then players shouldn't be allowed to play high performance balls. What's next, a return to standard steel blades and persimmon? Neither option makes ANY sense to me.

The new grooves offer the same performance from the fairway. That is the whole point of the change. You want boring golf... bomb and gouge is the ultimate in tedium. I loved watching the expression Allenby's face when he hit the flyer over the green and into the hazard yesterday. I've missed that sort of thing for 20 years.... good to have it back.

I support your opinion, but the rule is ridiculous. Here is Jack Nicklaus on the subject of the groove ruling:

How does that support your contention. It sounds to me like Jack is totally in favor of the rule because in one way or another it will lead to the more skillful player shooting the better score more often. The guys who don't know how to play anything but driver - wedge are going to have to develop some better course management and shotmaking skills or they will be left behind. There is no way that watching no talent except length is better than watching talent in every facet of the game. Hit fairways, manage your game and the course, or kiss your players card goodbye. Love it....

[Shanks A Million]

No it's not. If you're brushing your club through the grass or sand to "put" stuff on the clubface you're violating the rules. That's not a grey area.

I know, I'm grasping at straws at this point, but my point is that someone will come up with something. Maybe a face material that has better adhesion? And thanks for saying I was nuts on only this one issue, because there's a lot of others too you could have pointed out...

[wolverine_man]

Yes Shanks, I can see it now: PINE TAR!! Kidding, of course. In all seriousness, I think if we see any technological advance made to address the loss of spin out of the rough due to the new groove changes, it MAY come in the form of golf ball changes. Whether that means a return to the balata or not, I'm not sure. But that's a better possibility than the adhesive, etc. which is all clearly illegal.

[Alex B]

From ESPN,

this update from Scott McCarron:

"I responded, 'It's cheating and I am appalled Phil has put it in play.' I never called Phil Mickelson a cheater. That being said, I want my fans, sponsors, and most importantly, my fellow players, to know that I will not be silenced and I will continue my efforts to get the groove issue resolved."

Uhh, sorry Scott. If activity X is [verb]ing, then one who performs activity X is a [verb]er. You may not have directly called Mickelson a "cheater" -- but you sure implied it by calling his actions "cheating." So please, please shut up.

[Fourputt]

Yes Shanks, I can see it now: PINE TAR!! Kidding, of course. In all seriousness, I think if we see any technological advance made to address the loss of spin out of the rough due to the new groove changes, it MAY come in the form of golf ball changes. Whether that means a return to the balata or not, I'm not sure. But that's a better possibility than the adhesive, etc. which is all clearly illegal.

Even with balata balls the rough still caused fliers and difficulty in predicting spin.

What I don't get is that so many seem to think that this is an insurmountable obstacle. It's only been for a bit more than 20 years that the square grooves have been a factor in golf. Prior to that, this is the way the game was played, and it seemed to work just fine. Good players learn to adjust and deal with it. Bad players who can't adjust become club pros or used car salesmen.

[wolverine_man]

I agree with the above statement. And for the record, I don't believe that Phil's wedge was of any benefit to him this past weekend. Dude needs to seriously learn how to drive the golf ball straight.

[sean_miller]

I agree with the above statement. And for the record, I don't believe that Phil's wedge was of any benefit to him this past weekend. Dude needs to seriously learn how to drive the golf ball straight.

They mentioned his driver has 6 degrees of loft. Or maybe they said 6 degrees of separation from the fairway. He was striping that fairway wood pretty nice though!