Driver Torque Woes?

[Travtex]

Been looking reaaaaal closely at my driver issues. To what degree does shaft torque impact your misses?

Last couple of rounds combined with finally getting some swing video have me on a bit of an equipment analysis frenzy. Not counting newbie idiot misses, here's what's generally happening.

Irons: Uniflex shafts
Miss: Pull hook

3h (20*): Stiff shaft
Shot: 210-220
Miss: Pull hook

4h (23*): Stiff shaft
Shot: 190-200
Miss: Pull hook

3w (17*): Regular shaft
Shot: 220-240 (Tee)
Miss: High looping slice (Very rare. I tend to either pure it or top the hell out of it.)

Driver (10.5*): Graf PL Blue 45R (5 deg torque)
Shot: Nothing good. 150-180 weak slice.

Obviously, the driver is the odd man out. Looking at my swing, I seem to have a pretty aggressive transition (I like having that 'Wet rag hanging off the clubhead' feel when I trigger my hips). I think I'm seeing the culprit for weenie slice riiiiight here:







The clubface is twisting waaaaay open. Considering I don't do that with any other club (To the contrary, I'm more of a pull-hooker), can just having a mismatched shaft have THAT dramatic of an impact?

I swing a driver at around 100mph or so.

[deronsizemore]

The clubface is twisting way open because of a flaw in your grip, swing, etc most likely. Torque makes some difference but from what I've read and been told, it's not as much as people like to think. I know some low handicap players who hit the ball a ton that use a high torque driver and are just fine and I also know others that like a lower torque driver. It's not possible for the clubface to twist open that much, unless you're using a noodle for a shaft that is. With a 100mph swing, your transition isn't THAT agressive. My average driver swing speed is around 110 and I use a 3.2 torque shaft, which isn't nessessarliy considered low.

Looks to me like in the middle picture that you're way out ahead of the ball and the ball is pretty far back in your stance to behind with, this will make you miss to the left.

[spitz20]

spend 50 dollars and get a lesson

[Travtex]

Looks to me like in the middle picture that you're way out ahead of the ball and the ball is pretty far back in your stance to behind with, this will make you miss to the left.

This was my planned experiment next time I get to the range, thanks.

As far as the grip goes... it's not odd that the face would lay wide open with one club and tend to be shut with another? (I tend to fight with my grip if I don't pay attention -- It drifts closed. Overcorrection, maybe.)

[chilly]

As others have said, it's not the torque causing issues.

[Travtex]

As others have said, it's not the torque causing issues.

Good to know, thanks.

[deronsizemore]

This was my planned experiment next time I get to the range, thanks.

It's definitely possible but I know how you feel believe me. Anyone that's played the game for any amount of time has been in your shoes scratching their head. The thing is, the driver is the most difficult club to hit in the bag. Teeing it up does make it a little easier to hit but it has the least amount of loft of any club which makes it hard to hit. The more loft a club has the more backspin you'll put on the ball which means less sidespin which means a straighter shot. It's exactly the reason that you can hit a wedge much straighter than you can hit a 3 iron. The driver is also the most difficult club to square up which is what you're experiencing now. Could very well be your grip but can't tell from the pictures. Post a face on picture of your grip and I can probably help you in that regard.

You also want the ball positioned off of the heel of your forward foot. In the pictures above, it looks like you've got the ball back a good five inches or so in the stance. Set a club or stick down perpendicular to your body so it's touching the heel of your forward foot and then tee a ball up at the end of the stick so you can get an idea of how far forward you need to play the ball and see what that feels like. It will like feel REALLY far forward in your stance.

[Travtex]

The driver is also the most difficult club to square up which is what you're experiencing now. Could very well be your grip but can't tell from the pictures. Post a face on picture of your grip and I can probably help you in that regard.

Don't have one handy at the moment, but there's a good shot of it in my swing vid thread in the Playing Tips section (I do have stills of every position with both clubs, so I can throw that into the mix once I get home in the morning if it'll help).

You also want the ball positioned off of the heel of your forward foot. In the pictures above, it looks like you've got the ball back a good five inches or so in the stance. Set a club or stick down perpendicular to your body so it's touching the heel of your forward foot and then tee a ball up at the end of the stick so you can get an idea of how far forward you need to play the ball and see what that feels like. It will like feel REALLY far forward in your stance.

Hah! Funny thing is, that's where I originally had my ball teed up. I was thinning little diving line drives at the time, so my pro moved it back to the current position. What I think happened is that I really started generating power through my lower body (Swing speed went from about 85 when I first started eight months or so ago to the low hundreds now). Probably changed my impact zone significantly.

[deronsizemore]

Don't have one handy at the moment, but there's a good shot of it in my swing vid thread in the Playing Tips section (I do have stills of every position with both clubs, so I can throw that into the mix once I get home in the morning if it'll help).

Well I'm not a pro so I guess you should listen to him, but I have to say I can't imagine why he would have moved the ball back that far. That's more of a band-aid fix if you ask me. The reason you were thinning drives with the ball that far forward was because you likely weren't getting your weight back to your right side on the downswing (it was staying on your back foot) therefore from that position you have two options:

1. Hit WAY behind the ball and dig into the dirt or... 2. Raise your upper body up (because you know you're going to hit the ground) and then hit one thin. So I guess he moved the ball back in your stance so that you could start making contact, but like I said, that's not where you want the ball so for him to put it there would only cause you incorporate more wrong moves into your swing.

[Shanks A Million]

The clubface is twisting waaaaay open. Considering I don't do that with any other club (To the contrary, I'm more of a pull-hooker), can just having a mismatched shaft have THAT dramatic of an impact?

I swing a driver about 10-15 mph faster, and I can tell you that torque does have some effect on the shot, but not a huge amount. First off, flex and torque are not related, although they tend to match. Like "forged" and "carbon steel", they are two different things that are often lumped together.

As to how they affect you, well, that's pretty easy to explain. For example, my 3 wood has 2.8° of torque. My irons are basically S300 steel shafts, so about 3°. My Driver has 3.8° of torque. These all more or less are the same, the face and weighting being much more important to the equation. Now, I have some older fairway woods, with the original McGreggor graphite shafts on them. These things have probably more than 12° of torque on them. With the exact same swing, these clubs will often have a push-slice. Here's the thing, torque doesn't always have the same effect. Too much torque and you merely get less consistency from shot to shot, too little and you get too rigid of a shaft, and too hard of a feel. With my higher torque older clubs, the slice isn't constant. It's only occasional, because the shaft is closing through impact. If it's not closed, you'll push and slice... If it is, it goes straight. While it's nice to have something to blame for a club acting up, it's usually the user. I generally look into the mental picture before I start getting mad at a club. I often mishit my 3 wood, but it's because I'm anxious, and lack confidence with the club. I pull out another 3 wood, and hit it just fine. Mental.

[Travtex]

Here's the thing, torque doesn't always have the same effect. Too much torque and you merely get less consistency from shot to shot, too little and you get too rigid of a shaft, and too hard of a feel. With my higher torque older clubs, the slice isn't constant. It's only occasional, because the shaft is closing through impact. If it's not closed, you'll push and slice... If it is, it goes straight.

Good info, thanks.

While it's nice to have something to blame for a club acting up, it's usually the user. I generally look into the mental picture before I start getting mad at a club. I often mishit my 3 wood, but it's because I'm anxious, and lack confidence with the club. I pull out another 3 wood, and hit it just fine. Mental.

Heh. This is why I've spent the better part of a month jacking around with it. Like the feel of the club (I think the PL45 has like 5* of torque), and have been trying to figure out what I'm doing with that specific club to make it behave so drastically differently. Check with the pro, "Swing's fine". One pro shop says I definitely need a stiff flex shaft, another tells me regular flex.

Kinda like going to various doctors for a mystery pain and having them all tell you nothing's wrong with you, while all offering different home remedies. *laugh* My budget coupled with my mindset, I'd -much- rather it be my dumbassery than some equipment misfit.

[Shanks A Million]

Good info, thanks.

You can have a perfect swing and still hit the ball like crap. You need muscle memory, the swing has to be automatic. When you think, you lose. That's why we have driving ranges, you get your swing to the point of being natural, then go out and play. I hit more than a hundred full shots every day. My swing is far from perfect, but it's extremely accurate, making center contact nearly every single shot. My muscles are used to bringing the club into the ball at the right angle, simple as that.

[enis750]

The clubface is twisting way open because of a flaw in your grip, swing, etc most likely. Torque makes some difference but from what I've read and been told, it's not as much as people like to think. I know some low handicap players who hit the ball a ton that use a high torque driver and are just fine and I also know others that like a lower torque driver. It's not possible for the clubface to twist open that much, unless you're using a noodle for a shaft that is. With a 100mph swing, your transition isn't THAT agressive. My average driver swing speed is around 110 and I use a 3.2 torque shaft, which isn't nessessarliy considered low.

agreed

that middle pic shows where you issues are and no offence, but its not the gear bro, its you once you have a consistent swing, you can deice what shaft and torque to consider I have a high launch angle (about 12-13) so i use a medium torque shaft to keep the ball lower (see sig for shaft specs) lower torque = stiffer tip and lower ball flight

[Shanks A Million]

lower torque = stiffer tip and lower ball flight

Nah, not quite. Torque and stiffness are not the same thing. Similar, but not always related. Torque is resistance to twisting, measured in degrees. Lower #°, more resistance to twisting. Flex refers to the side to side, or lateral flex in a shaft. While more flexible shafts will usually have more torque, and vice versa, it's not a rule set in stone. An Aldilla DVS 65-S has 2.8° of torque. A 69-XX flex Axivcore tour red has 3.2° of torque. The softer shaft has less torque. Torque is its own number, and is not a reflection of stiffness.

[Travtex]

agreed that middle pic shows where you issues are and no offence, but its not the gear bro, its you

Offense? To the contrary, I'm stoked. I'd been hoping to salvage the club, but this info didn't emerge from the swing vid thread. Bettah late than nevah.

[mc0388]

I was thinning little diving line drives at the time, so my pro moved it back to the current position. What I think happened is that I really started generating power through my lower body (Swing speed went from about 85 when I first started eight months or so ago to the low hundreds now). Probably changed my impact zone significantly.

You might benefit most by not listening to your pro and spending some time on this sight learning more about the golf swing and golf equipment.