Nick Faldo: Anti-S&T, but Why?

[iacas]

Stipulation #1: Nick Faldo has bashed Stack and Tilt because he says that, among other things, you need to really coil into your right side.

Stipulation #2: Nick Faldo was a great player, and here he is winning the 1992 British Open:



Stipulation #3:


Conclusion: Don't believe everything you hear, regardless of the source.

[Fatphil]

On a totally different note, that S&T; guy on the right; his shaft just past impact is flexed toward the target. I've seen that in a few pictures (lorena ochoa I think) but not very often. Usually the shaft is straight or back the other way. Obviously I really don't understand how shaft flex works.

[Chief Broom]

Obviously I really don't understand how shaft flex works.

While it seems counter intutitive at impact your hands are actually slowing down. The action is similar to cracking a whip. A whip "cracks" because the tip of the whip exceeds the speed of sound (a mini sonic boom). There is no way that a person can generate that kind of speed with their hand/arm alone. What happens is that you load up the entire whip with intertia and at the end of your hand's motion you snap your hand backwards. This counter motion travels down the whip and creates centrifical force that further speeds up the tip end of the whip and that's what generates the maximum speed (to further mix the metaphor this is also how a space craft can use a planetary body's gravity to accelerate, or how a fly rod enables you to cast a fly that is lighter than the line it's tied to). So too does this happen with a golf club. This is where matching shaft flex to your swing speed is so important. You want the shaft to flex enough so that at impact all the inertia you have stored in the shaft can be transfered most efficiently to the ball - the whip crack. Too much flex and the shaft bends too much and loses power and moves all over the place. Too stiff and and the shaft doesn't flex enough and you don't get the benefit at impact of the shaft fully unloading all the power you've loded into it. Just right and the shaft flexes away from the target on the downswing, but flexes toward the target right at impact as the hands slow down and crack the whip.

[iacas]

While it seems counter intutitive at impact your hands are actually slowing down.

In some cameras it can also be a result of how the image is "assembled."

But let's stick to the topic, please.

[Chief Broom]

But let's stick to the topic, please.

Sorry.

It is funny how S-n-T'ish most pros actually are in spite of what they say.

[iacas]

Sorry.

It is. S&T; isn't as radical as many seem to think.

[sean_miller]

I like the side by side comparisons to great players (current and historical).

From the little I've read and seen, I think if someone has a solid swing (some days even I do) S&T; wouldn't necessarily require a complete swing rebuild. I'm not a fan of the term though - sounds like a game with drinking cups.

[Leftygolfer]

That is pretty funny, good work Erik. I think the reason people talk so negitively of stack and tilt is there perception of the way they swing. I am sure if you asked Faldo about the way he swings, he would talk about how he maintains his flex in his knees, shifts behind the ball, and his hips turn instead of slid. That very well could be what he feels. But in this day and age I am surprised he hasn't realized what he felt and did aren't the same. Maybe he just doesn't want to give it credit or admit he was wrong. There is nothing unique about stack and tilt except the name. A good move is a good move.

A funny yet related story. I was talking to my buddy who is going to be a doctor. I was saying in a couple of years once we have a bit more money we should go to a golf clinic at Golf Evolution and he said he didn't want to because he doesn't like stack and tilt. My question is, don't you want to get better? Everybody I ever heard talk about learning stack and tilt or going to clinics have gotten better. You don't have to overhaul your swing, just go with an open mind. There is this stigma about the swing that isn't warranted. It really isn't unique other than teaching what good players do and not what they think they do.

[JetFan1983]

I've always liked this guy's videos and I found this today and it reminded me of this thread. Sorry in advance if this is off topic.

[Chief Broom]

Some of the best advice I've ever been given was told to me by a former scratch golfer (he's now in his 80's and still has an amazing game) and a PGA assistant pro. Neither would ever dream of claiming affiliation with S-n-T, but they both corrected my slide away from the target on the backswing and told me to instead turn: the classic S-n-T move to stay over the ball. Golf swings are very individualized but the true fundamentals concern consistancy and repeatability, and that's what S-n-T is all about.

[Deryck Griffith]

It is. S&T; isn't as radical as many seem to think.

The improper application of the S&T; can be radical; however, if executed properly, it is a fabulous swing style that many of the old timers used without even realizing...

[Fatphil]

In some cameras it can also be a result of how the image is "assembled."

so it's an optical illusion..OK.. txs..back on subject...yeh Nick's a tool...

[iacas]

I like the side by side comparisons to great players (current and historical).

And actually analyzing the swings of players - the pieces, the parts, the movements, etc. - is a big part of what Mike and Andy did when they built up Stack and Tilt. It's a big part of what Mac O'Grady did/does, too, so they likely got that from him... but it's more of a "do as they do, not as they say." As we know, for example with the ball flight laws thread and the post I made about Nick Faldo on there... what they say and what they do are different.

From the little I've read and seen, I think if someone has a solid swing (some days even I do) S&T; wouldn't necessarily require a complete swing rebuild. I'm not a fan of the term though - sounds like a game with drinking cups.

I'm not sure Mike and Andy are a fan of the name either. Golf Digest needed a name, though, so this is what they came up with in a few minutes.

And right, every good player does a good portion of the pieces already. Many of the Tour players who are in their stable have only had to change one or two things. But those little things have big results - and immediate impact.

I am sure if you asked Faldo about the way he swings, he would talk about how he maintains his flex in his knees, shifts behind the ball, and his hips turn instead of slid.

Undoubtedly.

But in this day and age I am surprised he hasn't realized what he felt and did aren't the same. Maybe he just doesn't want to give it credit or admit he was wrong. There is nothing unique about stack and tilt except the name. A good move is a good move.

What's troubling - and I've said this before - is that I don't think Nick is a "student of the game." I think a "student of the game" is constantly challenging his own beliefs to see if they hold up, and is actually studying things before dismissing them. There's a pretty good "spectrum" out there showing Nick through the years. It's plain as day why he's lost a metric ton of distance, but instead he's content to film commercials where he supposedly hits a 6-iron 224 yards or something...

I was saying in a couple of years once we have a bit more money we should go to a golf clinic at Golf Evolution and he said he didn't want to because he doesn't like stack and tilt. My question is, don't you want to get better? Everybody I ever heard talk about learning stack and tilt or going to clinics have gotten better.

I agree, with the provision of "actually learning it." Some people have gotten worse but these aren't people who have - in my experience - worked with a qualified instructor. We're launching our "evolvr" product soon so that golfers who aren't near a qualified instructor can still improve with the help of one, and in a very affordable way, because what you say is true in my experience.

Neither would ever dream of claiming affiliation with S-n-T, but they both corrected my slide away from the target on the backswing and told me to instead turn: the classic S-n-T move to stay over the ball. Golf swings are very individualized but the true fundamentals concern consistancy and repeatability, and that's what S-n-T is all about.

Indeed, and that's part of my own journey too. I learned on my own that swaying off the ball was a bad thing. I learned to side tilt, stand up, etc. all on my own because it made more sense. If you had asked me what I was doing I'd have just said "trying to keep my head steady so I can return the club back to the ball easily." I wouldn't have known I was side tilting, extending my back, etc. But I was - that's the only real way to turn and get to that position.

I grew up trying to do everything the opposite of what I read the "average golfer" did. I had a huge sway off the ball because I read that the average golfer had a reverse pivot. I hit big hooks because I didn't want to slice like the average golfer. I had a strong grip because the average golfer had a weak one. I was bound and determined not to make the same dumb mistakes... And that's the problem with articles in golf magazines... and books... and that you read from most people... But I digress. (Every time I say that now I think of that FedEx commercial with the presentation:

[colin007]

I've always liked this guy's videos and I found this today and it reminded me of this thread. Sorry in advance if this is off topic.

good info, but that guy speaks terribly.

[sean_miller]

... but it's more of a "do as they do, not as they say." As we know, for example with the ball flight laws thread and the post I made about Nick Faldo on there... what they say and what they do are different.

To carry on with the Faldo theme, I don't know why he'd shy away from S&T; unless he has personal reasons. To hear (read) of him refuting what is essentially the same swing with which he temporarily dominated the sport, well, it's mind boggling.

Maybe I take it mildly personally because after watching Nick play that weekend in July 1992 (on the telly) I spent the better part of 2 summers trying to nail down his mid-long iron swing.

[david_wedzik]

To carry on with the Faldo theme, I don't know why he'd shy away from S&T; unless he has personal reasons. To hear (read) of him refuting what is essentially the same swing with which he temporarily dominated the sport, well, it's mind boggling.

To be fair there were differences in what Faldo did overall and the SnT pattern but MANY similarities as pointed out by Erik in starting this thread. But...my point...the answer to your question is, amazingly, that Nick Faldo does not have any idea what SnT is really about (same with virtually everyone that bashes it and I say that with a great deal of experience on this subject). Everyone who reads this will surely think..."come on, Nick Faldo, etc. haven't taken the time to really understand and grasp the concept of SnT". Though I find that VERY hard to stomach as well, it is the truth. It seems to be a simpler process to bash without taking the necessary time to learn than to spend the time learning and make educated decisions from there. Honestly, if someone out there who really understands SnT, and all there is to it, has a valid argument based on fact I will be the first one to listen.

Dave

[Keep It Simple]

To Dave. How close would you consider Sam Snead and Bobby Jones swings to resembling S&T;? I think they look pretty close. One thing I noticed and you can see it with Nick Faldo, many tour players have a lower body movement similar to S&T; but the arms travel on a much steeper plane and the spine never quite tilts toward the target in the backswing. Even some of the tour players that use S&T; practice with the proper arm movement but deviate from it somewhat at full swing speed.

[iacas]

and the spine never quite tilts toward the target in the backswing.

You seem to have fallen for one of the misconceptions about Stack and Tilt. The spine never tilts towards the target, it tilts

left - which as the golfer turns his shoulders becomes a move towards the golf ball, not the target.