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Posted
I was playing a week ago with a guy that out drove me by at least 30 yds on average and I hit the driver pretty far as well. He told me that I lose yardage because on my downswing I do not keep my back elbow close to me. So I was assuming that when I drop my back elbow into my side for the downswing it makes me pivot faster. So on the range yesterday I was hitting a few golf balls with a slightly open stance. Just so I could feel the elbow come inside, I was hitting all my clubs at least 10 yds farther and I was getting a perfect divot in front of the ball. Does this sound confusing I just wanted to know what some of you thought.
Driver Taylormade r9 supertri *9.5
Hybrid Taylormade rescue burner 19 degree
Irons 2008 taylormade TP
Wedges Taylormade rac TP 52, 56, 60
Putter Scotty Cameron Newport 2.0 Studio StyleBall Bridgestone e6

Posted
not confusing at all, if i'm not hitting my irons pure that's usually the reason, and on drives if I keep it tucked in I can get some extra yardage out of it...but on irons is where I see the most benefit

In my Titleist 2014 9.5" Staff bag:

Cobra Bio+ 9* Matrix White Tie X  - Taylormade SLDR 15* ATTAS 80X - Titleist 910H 19* ATTAS 100X - Taylormade '13 TP MC 4-PW PX 6.5 - Vokey TVD M 50* DG TI X100 - Vokey SM4 55 / Vokey SM5 60* DG TI S400 - Piretti Potenza II 365g


Posted
So keeping my back elbow tucked really makes a big difference huh?
Driver Taylormade r9 supertri *9.5
Hybrid Taylormade rescue burner 19 degree
Irons 2008 taylormade TP
Wedges Taylormade rac TP 52, 56, 60
Putter Scotty Cameron Newport 2.0 Studio StyleBall Bridgestone e6

Posted
What i think it does is, creates that lag. If your right elbow is close to your side, you decrease the angle between you and the club, then you whip that through the ball to create alot of club head speed. That is why people say when you want more distance you extend on the backswing more. Because the change in angle between your backswing and your downswing is were power comes from. They did image studies on this with long and short drivers of the ball on the tour. But the only issue i have is if you start to get stuck, then you might flip your hands or start casting.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Posted
with an elbow tucked, it makes casting kinda hard...but makes flipping a bit easier to do...especially if you rotate the hands and drive through the ball trying to time the release of lag. There is a detriment to holding your arm too close as well, could flatten out your swing too much and if you were to raise up...top...if you were to keep your front shoulder down, could be fat...it's a matter of finding that 'niche' for your own swing slot. i went to the range with my camera and did a few swings with a slightly, moderately and incredibly tucked right elbow...i'm in between moderate/incredibly tucked. I find if i come too close to my body the clubhead can turn over faster (handsy) and not drive through the shot. If your elbow is farther from your body it decreases your lag or can lead to casting. (keep in mind there are two kinds of lag, one for instance is the kind sergio garcia has and then the kind jason zuback has)

In my Titleist 2014 9.5" Staff bag:

Cobra Bio+ 9* Matrix White Tie X  - Taylormade SLDR 15* ATTAS 80X - Titleist 910H 19* ATTAS 100X - Taylormade '13 TP MC 4-PW PX 6.5 - Vokey TVD M 50* DG TI X100 - Vokey SM4 55 / Vokey SM5 60* DG TI S400 - Piretti Potenza II 365g


Posted
I've noticed I hit the ball further when my right elbow drops in the slot. I also feel the torque built up in the backswing is more efficient and the overall swing is more towards the effortless effort end of the spectrum. I do experience the flipping action as explained by Gioguy21. I don't practice enough to keep my timing in check.

I like the figure skater analogy here. When skaters tuck in their arms and legs, they are able to spin faster. When right elbow drops in closer to my body, the hands are closer as well and the speed is there. The arc is tighter as well. This is mostly with my driver. My irons are fairly predictable, but I think the club weight is a factor for me.

'09 Burner (UST ProForce V2 77g - S)
4dx 15.5 hybrid (UST V2 - Stiff)
'99 Apex Plus 3-EW (Stiff)
TM rac 50/6 GW
Arnold Palmer The Standard SW (20-30 years old)'99 Dual Rossie Blade


Posted
I've been working on that exact swing thought, right elbow tight. I think it makes for more lag, and more solid contact. I've done it intentionally on a swing monitor, instant 4-5mph difference with a driver, and you'll hit the ball more consistently. I throw a golf glove in my armpit to make sure I keep the elbow tucked.

Driver: i15 8* UST Axivcore Red 69S
3w: CB1 15* Grafalloy Prolaunch Platinum 75s
5w: G10 18.5* UST V2 HL
3h: HiFli CLK 20* UST V2 Hybrid
4h: 3DX 23* UST V2 Hybrid5i-pw: MX-23 TT Dynalite Gold S300GW/SW: RAC 52*and 56*Putter: SabertoothBag: KingPin


Note: This thread is 5735 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
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