Rules Question: Touching ball at address

[hippyboy]

Hi, i just want to ask a quick question, while playing in a comp at the weekend one of the players touched the ball with his club while addressing it (on fairway) I thought it counted as a shot but one of the other guys said as the ball had not completed one full revolution it was OK.

So I just want to know if this is correct? If so does it apply to rough as well or just fairway. I know if you knock it off the tee at address its OK, you get the usual "that's one" comment but not a penalty.

[rebby]

  None said:

18-2 b. Ball Moving After Address If a player's ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-18/ However, decision 18/2 states;

  None said:

18/2 Ball Oscillates During Address Q. In addressing the ball, a player accidentally causes the ball to oscillate, but it returns to its original position. Has the ball "moved"? A. No.

[tws1098]

My understanding of the rule is that if you cause the ball to move it is a stroke. I believe this is why at the Masters the announcers were saying that the guys were making sure to be far enough away from the ball when they took practice swings on the straw so that the ball didn't move.

[zeg]

Yep, moving the ball is a penalty. Touching it with the club is not. If it does move, other than the "oscillation" in the decision quoted above, there's no "acceptable" movement---i.e., the business about a full rotation is bogus. If it moves at all, it's a penalty. You must replace it before your next stroke or you get to tack on two more strokes for playing from the wrong place.

[Ignorant]

  tws1098 said:

My understanding of the rule is that if you cause the ball to move it is a stroke. I believe this is why at the Masters the announcers were saying that the guys were making sure to be far enough away from the ball when they took practice swings on the straw so that the ball didn't move.

I tis NOT a stroke as it is not the player's intention to strike the ball. Accidental (or deliberate, for that matter) moving of the ball without making a stroke (see Definition of Stroke) falls undes Rule 18-2, as stated by rebby above.

  zeg said:

Yep, moving the ball is a penalty. Touching it with the club is not. If it does move, other than the "oscillation" in the decision quoted above, there's no "acceptable" movement---i.e., the business about a full rotation is bogus. If it moves at all, it's a penalty. You must replace it before your next stroke or you get to tack on

Nope. Rule 18 states that:

' *If a player who is required to replace a ball fails to do so, or if he makes a stroke at a ball substituted under Rule 18 when such substitution is not permitted, he incurs the general penalty for breach of Rule 18, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule.' So a total of 2 penalties are earned if the ball s not replaced, not 1+2.

[zeg]

  Ignorant said:

Nope. Rule 18 states that:

Ahh yes, when this came up in a different thread I mentioned that I remembered there being a reason that you only took the two but I couldn't find that statement. Thanks.

[motteler621]

  hippyboy said:

Hi, i just want to ask a quick question, while playing in a comp at the weekend one of the players touched the ball with his club while addressing it (on fairway) I thought it counted as a shot but one of the other guys said as the ball had not completed one full revolution it was OK.

I wouldnt worry about it unless you guys are playing on the pga tour or something,lol. Honestly those guys get paid millions of dollars so the cometition and rules are very strict. It shouldnt count for a stroke if you touch the ball with your iron at address, i mean come on.

[James_Black]

  motteler621 said:

I wouldnt worry about it unless you guys are playing on the pga tour or something,lol. Honestly those guys get paid millions of dollars so the cometition and rules are very strict. It shouldnt count for a stroke if you touch the ball with your iron at address, i mean come on.

you should always stick to the rules though

[hippyboy]

Thanks for all the replies, it's much appreciated.

[Ignorant]

  motteler621 said:

I wouldnt worry about it unless you guys are playing on the pga tour or something,lol. Honestly those guys get paid millions of dollars so the cometition and rules are very strict.

You're right, it shouldn't and it doesn't.

Touching a ball at address with a club is perfectly allowed but causing it to move without a stroke costs you one penalty, no way around that. If one does not wish to play by the Rules it is one's choice. However, in order to choose not to play by the Rules one needs to know them...

[blackxpress]

Personally, I wish more amateurs would observe this rule. The purpose of the rule is to prevent you from improving your lie. A lot of the guys I play with roll their ball out of habit. I see guys do it when they don't even need to. A guy has a perfectly good lie but he'll roll the ball anyway just to be sure he has the best lie possible. It's a nervous habit with some guys, like nail biting. It's also strictly against the rules, for good reason. Golf scores and handicaps would be a lot more realistic if everybody played their ball down like the rule book says.

[DavidFehertysBike]

From my understanding, unless youre in a bunker or hazard, accidentally touching the ball at address with the club is not a penalty unless the ball actually moves from its original poistion. It can wiggle around, but if it comes to rest where it orginally was youre ok. On the tee you have to actually swing at it for the stroke to count.

[IndianScout]

what irritates me is, I play it where it lies, even in the middle of summer the guys we play with, play winter rules to get a better lie..

if we are going to play winter rules then we should decide before we start the round, not when someone brings it up for cheating..

[double_j]

The assumption with my group(s) tend to be 'play the ball down unless there is a glaring reason not to' (e.g., unusually wet course, or rain, etc.). Otherwise we all explicitly agree to an exception before doing anything and always alert our playing partners before touching the ball under any circumstance.

That said, we tend to be forgiving for minor mistakes as long as they were obviously unintentional. None of us want to win a recreational & friendly round due to a technicality.

Also, we will also allow relief in some non-standard cases since we actually have to pay for our equipment and our public layout does have some less than ideal conditions. No need for any of us to risk injury or club damage due to rocks in bunkers, etc. or places that probably should have been marked as ground under repair, etc. But still, our general rule is to ask for any relief before taking it.

[Ignorant]

  DavidFehertysBike said:

From my understanding,

Could not find anything distinguishing hazards from through the green in this matter:

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment a. General When a player’s ball is in play, if: (i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or.... As I alrady stated earlier, touching the ball with a club (at address) is fine, moving the ball always counts.

[JerseyThursday]

  blackxpress said:

Personally, I wish more amateurs would observe this rule. The purpose of the rule is to prevent you from improving your lie. A lot of the guys I play with roll their ball out of habit. I see guys do it when they don't even need to. A guy has a perfectly good lie but he'll roll the ball anyway just to be sure he has the best lie possible. It's a nervous habit with some guys, like nail biting. It's also strictly against the rules, for good reason. Golf scores and handicaps would be a lot more realistic if everybody played their ball down like the rule book says.

Agreed.

Rolling the ball for a better lie is flat-out cheating. If you roll the ball there is no punishment for hitting it in the rough. In fact, it could benefit you to be in the rough if you are hitting a fairway wood because you can roll it up onto a nice tuft of grass, almost like sitting it on a tee. If you roll the ball because “hey, I’m out here for fun” fine, just don’t hope to be considered a real golfer.