Clear up "new ball flight laws" for me

[westcyderydin]

alright i see a lot of this talk around here. tell me if this is correct, im just gonna simplify what i think u are saying in my own words.

and im gonna be hitting a draw on this shot

- Pick out target.
- Pick out where i want to start the ball.
- I want to set up pointed a bit to the right (or just make sure my swing path is inside to out)
- Square up club face (maybe half way?) between where i am starting the ball and where i want it to end up.

is this kinda what you all are saying?

[iacas]

- Square up club face (maybe half way?) between where i am starting the ball and where i want it to end up.

No.

Point the club where you want the ball to start. Not halfway there. Technically it's 85%, but 85% is closer to 100% than 50%. The rest is right.

[delav]

In addition to Erik's video on youtube, this one was helpful as well.

[killerduck]

The quality of the video is really poor, and the guy tends to take a long time to make his point, but his point is very good. Will try and play with this next time I'm on the range.

[Scots Golf]

ERik is right. Where the clubface is aiming is the most important factor in influencing where the ball will travel.

[delav]

Understanding the new laws from a physics perspective, I find it really funny that the old laws were accepted so widespread.

I remember my dad saying countless times "to fix that hook you just need to come through more on the inside" only to watch my old hooks get worse growing up. The understanding of the angle differential between path and clubface is very helpful.

I really like this visual, too:

http://fjorla.net/gfx/golfballflight1.png

[Zeph]

Here are a couple more graphics I made earlier, hope they can help.

http://i42.tinypic.com/jg36oo.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/15mo46r.jpg

[delav]

No.

Iacas - Are the new ball flight laws more applicable to players who keep the clubface square to the target plane? To expand...

The reason I ask is that when hitting a draw, whether it be me or photos of better players in magazines, it seems that although a golfer sets up square to the target at takeaway the move into the ball results in an in-to-out swing path with a face that is slightly closed to the swingpath but slightly open to the target line. Looking at the moment of impact in magazines, I've seen this several times long before the mention of new ball flight laws. When playing a draw, I'll usually start the ball right of the target and turn it in (sometimes beyond) my intended target, all without squaring up to where I'd like to start the ball. Much of this is done with the hands and the timing of the release however. Although the mechanics of the swing path and face angle at impact alone (resulting ball flight) seem the same, the mentality at address is different. It seems like implementing the new ball flight laws would be most significant to players who keep the face square to the plane?

[Zeph]

More applicable? These are laws of physics, not something we can decide using or not. It's like gravity. If you throw a club into the air, it will at some point fall down again, regardless of how you tossed it.

There are different ways to get the angles needed in order to hit a shaped shot, but the laws are the same regardless. If a player align square and swing in-to-out or align to the right and swing square, the club face still have to be slightly inside the swing path in order for the ball to draw.

Some take a stronger/weaker grip, some rotate the club in their hands, some hold off or roll the arms through the release. Some swing in-to-out, some out-to-in, some square. That is all style and up to each individual how you want to hit it. The laws applies to everyone. They tell us what angles are needed to hit a shot, and what angles might have caused a poor shot. How you go about to achieve those angles is another discussion.

Example of how you can hit a fade with an in-to-out swing path: http://i43.tinypic.com/28hhlrq.jpg

[double_j]

Understanding the new laws from a physics perspective, I find it really funny that the old laws were accepted so widespread.

Sorry, but I don't think that your dad's advice was based on conventional golf wisdom at all. He was dead wrong by all accounts.

I really don't understand what the big hubbub is. This is really just a different way of thinking about the same thing, although I will admit that the clarification will help some people (especially beginners) visualize and understand what's going on at the moment of impact. Total agree with Zeph on this one. Understanding is one thing, how you implement is the important thing and that's really on an indidual by individual basis. This doesn't affect how I will go about creating a draw/fade, etc. and I doubt it will change where instructors will focus their attention, etc. E.g., why does everyone say to set up open to the target with a square clubface and swing along your feet line for a fade? It's because that set up will promote an out to in swing path and I believe that most people will naturally end up closing the clubface slightly to promote a ball that starts left of target without even thinking about it.

[Zeph]

E.g., why does everyone say to set up open to the target with a square clubface and swing along your feet line for a fade? It's because that set up will promote an out to in swing path and I believe that most people will naturally end up closing the clubface slightly to promote a ball that starts left of target without even thinking about it.

No, that is because everyone believed the ball started along the swing path, rather than the club face angle. Using the "new" laws, you would set up open to the target with the body and aim the club face in the middle of your alignment and target line. If your body aims 10 degrees to the left, club face should aim 5 degrees. Setting up with the intention of hoping someone to change something in the swing to get the desired shot is the wrong way to go about it. Why not set up like you want to hit the shot right away? When hitting a putt, do you aim the club face a bit to the right, hoping the swing path will square it up?

And it doesn't promote an out to in swing path, that is the whole point with aligning the body different, so you can swing in-square-in, or whatever you naturally do, and be able to hit shots that curve both ways. You can hit a draw and a fade with the body aligned square to the target, but it would require you to swing out-to-in for one shot and in-to-out for the next. Why not make this easier and adjust so you can use the same swing path for every shot?

[delav]

Sorry, but I don't think that your dad's advice was based on conventional golf wisdom at all. He was dead wrong by all accounts.

Yes you are correct. There is no new science involved, merely a different mental perspective on swingpath and clubface relationship.

And yes... my dad was wrong on several fronts. The direction of golf advice reversed many years ago.

[deronsizemore]

Example of how you can hit a fade with an in-to-out swing path:

Unless I'm looking at it wrong, the green line is the swing path, no? Looks like the green line is going outside-in, not inside-out...

[James_Black]

In addition to Erik's video on youtube, this one was helpful as well.

very very good video.

People please watch this!

[Zeph]

Unless I'm looking at it wrong, the green line is the swing path, no? Looks like the green line is going outside-in, not inside-out...

Out-to-in relative to the target line, yes, but in-to-out relative to the stance line.

There looks to be a small error in there. The "2º left of body alignment" should be right, not left. Fixed: http://i42.tinypic.com/2cdbskx.jpg

[deronsizemore]

Out-to-in relative to the target line, yes, but in-to-out relative to the stance line.

I still don't agree with it.

The only thing the golf ball knows is where the clubface is pointed and what the swing path is. If the clubface is open relative to the swing path, the ball will start where the clubface is pointed and then fade. In your diagram, the clubface (blue line) is open relative to the swing path (green line) therefore that should produce a fade. You can align your feet and body in 100 different directions and the ball doesn't know the difference; it just knows the face/path relationship.

[Zeph]

I still don't agree with it.

I don't see what you disagree on. The graphic is supposed to show how you hit a fade with a swing path which is in-to-out relative to your body alignment.

[deronsizemore]

I don't see what you disagree on. The graphic is supposed to show how you hit a fade with a swing path which is in-to-out relative to your body alignment.

Must have read your initial post wrong then. I thought this diagram was supposed to show you how to draw the ball. lol

My bad.