This Week's Thrash Talk

[jamesduncan]

man...the dumbest article about golf ive seriously ever read (and ive read some dooseys)

sure theres some rules that are problematic, but the ones that you've decided to highlight just make my mind boggle.

I can only say youve obviously decided to play the wrong game because these outline some of the issues that are at the very essence of the game.

like for example: your reasoning for not signing scorecards.

dude, what the heck are you talking about, trying to link it to online scoring or something??

Seriously ive never read a dumber rationale for a problem with that rule in my life. I mean youve entirely missed the whole point of the rule (and hence one of the foundations of playing the game)

and playing from out of a divot, i mean youve missed the boat so widely on this ruling, again its sort of troubling.

That you somehow feel entilted to comment on the game as a golf writer yet use the rationales that you've used to justify your problems can only make me think that you seriously must have no idea what the game is about.

Golf isnt about just what you score. its about playing the course as it lies.

In doing so, we are also responsible for leaving the course in the condition in which we found it. We do this not only out of respect for our fellow competitors but also as a comment on the way in which one needs to be responsible for our own actions.

I do have a feeling you dont understand the idea behind the phrase "fellow competitors".

We, as golfers, are not trying to beat each other, we are trying to all beat the course. Maybe you should only play match play or something, i dont know.

Or tennis.

The idea is that if you dont replace your divots you are just making things worse for everyone (and this idea can be taken off the golf course). I mean do we even need to explain this?

Im troubled that this is an indication of what golf has become in an era when achievement in sport starts to overshadow the idea of playing the game well to the best of your ability and being able to understand that the game of golf is not about just being "the best". Its about so many other things than that and the rules youve decided to take issue with are some of the very ones that highlight these values.

Ive played the game since i was a bout 4 years old. It has stood the tests of time, but to be honest, i do worry when i read articles like this, that are so ill informed and written from such a narrow perspective.


id suggest maybe taking up another sport as you unfort have little idea about the mind set that the rules are speaking to (my opinion anyways).

Or definately stop writing about it as unfortunately there's nothing really to discuss with the points that youve brought up (especially the signing the scorecard issue) because they are so removed from the spirit that they are trying to enforce. Using the excuse that you're not trying to make everyone happy is fine if you can actually demonstrate that you have a firm grasp of the subject at hand which you are trying to discuss.

but unfort you dont and if the game were played in the spirit you've alluded to by discussing these rules, all putts within 3 feet should be gimmies, cause "hey, theyre easy and its unfair to make me putt it cause, hey i got it so close in the first place!!! (gold star for me!)"

[Thrash13]

Golf isnt about just what you score. its about playing the course as it lies.

Tell that to all the professional golfers in the world. I'm sure a few of them would disagree.

Actually, it's quite a bit about what you score. How many people have "improving their handicap" as their number one goal each year? I'd bet it's a pretty high percentage. Edit: Oh yeah, it's Thrash Talk, not trash talk. It's funny there have already been two comments from people that agree with some of my article. Hmm..... Maybe it's not so outlandish afterall.

[jamesduncan]

congrats more gold stars for you..

ground under repair for the filled in divot sure, but ground under repair for an un replaced divot?..i mean seriouls, we might as well just play winter rules in july.

enjoy your fans

(ill update the thread title or the Mod can feel free to do that, cheers)

[jamesduncan]

Tell that to all the professional golfers in the world. I'm sure a few of them would disagree.

unfort youre quite wrong. I guess you dont know as many PGA tour members personally as I do. cheers.

[Thrash13]

Hey, I'm not bashing your opinions whatsoever. I appreciate the feedback, whether we agree or not. I was just pointing out that I'm obviously not the only one that thinks some of the rules are a little silly.

I think you took the article a little too personal, but that's your choice as well. Keep in mind I play the game for fun just like a lot of other people do. It's not the end of the world to think a certain way.

Once again, thanks for reading. I'm not here to make everyone agree with me, and I never will be. I think it's fun when someone questions the validity of my articles. It keeps things interesting. I do work very hard on every article I publish though.

[jamesduncan]

hey no probs. i enjoy reading people thoughts about the game and golf articles in general. it goes too to say thanks for taking the time and effort to write it i nthe first place.

re rules: yes, im right there with you.

yes some rules are indeed silly, far from perfect or have grey areas.

i just feel the ones youve decided to outline are integral to the game and take some issue with the rationales youve used for trying to suggest that they change.

and as it was commented, the rules do change and get modified. Infact the governing bodies do it every year.

case in point: the rules for amateur status sometimes change dramatically from year to year. infact, theres a great article unto itself about silly rules and rules that are bad for the game in general.

but man, signing your card is not one of them. Signing for the wrong score is central to the some of the ideas that the game is about (and most pros gladly adhere to).

cheers

[Rafcin]

without being as emotional as james and calling it the stupidest golf article ever ... I'd have problems introducing the interpretation factor to these clean-cut rules. Interpretation handbook is already 4 times the size of the original rulebook, why adding to it. At least now you do have the clear cut - not always fair, but no room for all the "but" "when" "if" etc.

[jamesduncan]

im not being emotional and just for the record i called it the dumbest golf article "ive ever read"

so there!

[Thrash13]

without being as emotional as james and calling it the stupidest golf article ever

I think the integrity of the game would have a lot to do with this.

1. I think it's pretty obvious when a ball ends up in a fairway divot and when it's just an old patch of grass or something. 2. The "testing hazard conditions" would be a lot tougher to interpret, so I can see your point there. 3. Signing the wrong scorecard is pretty self-explanatory. A player shouldn't be disqualified for signing the incorrect scorecard. At the very least, a penalty or something should be enforced. To DQ someone entirely is absurd. This one wouldn't take any extra interpretation. 4. The "ball moving after grounding the putter" rule would take integrity of the golfers themselves. This is no different than a lot of other rules. If a golfer states the ball moved without him touching it with the putter, then we should believe him. That's the integrity part. If he states he touched it with his putter, then penalize him. Other than #2, I think common sense and integrity would take care of the issues. The more I look at #2, the more I see that it shouldn't be included on the list. It would be more confusing than good if changed. The rule is still silly in Jonathan Byrd's situation, but it may cause more harm in the end.

[allin]

im not being emotional and just for the record i called it the dumbest golf article "ive ever read"

I don't mean it but the old comeback fits here. Good we weren't sure you could read.

[jamesduncan]

"3. Signing the wrong scorecard is pretty self-explanatory. A player shouldn't be disqualified for signing the incorrect scorecard. At the very least, a penalty or something should be enforced. To DQ someone entirely is absurd. This one wouldn't take any extra interpretation."

why do think its absurd to DQ someone tho?

[Rafcin]

...I think common sense and integrity would take care of the issues...

yeah, we wish it was that simple and it is in the grounds of golf's definition as a game - no referees, everybody polices themself. That assumes however that:

1. everybody playing the game knows the rules 2. everybody interprets it the same way if we could argue that #1 could be enforced (it's not in the real life, but let's assume it for a moment) - you'll always stack on #2. What looks like GUR to me is a divot to you, what I saw putting the putter down is not what you've seen, etc, etc. Sigining the scorecard shouldn't be an issue for broad public, I'd not touch this rule, however PGA Tour should have their own "local rule" to dump it. After all we (the public/media/officials, etc) know EVERYTHING about every player's score, every shot, yardage, club selection, what they had for dinner last night etc

[Rafcin]

I don't mean it but the old comeback fits here. Good we weren't sure you could read.

If I understand it correctly - are you implying this was his FIRST golf article he ever read? In that case it was the dumbest (and the smartest) he ever read

[jamesduncan]

Sigining the scorecard shouldn't be an issue for broad public, I'd not touch this rule, however PGA Tour should have their own "local rule" to dump it. After all we (the public/media/officials, etc) know EVERYTHING about every player's score, every shot, yardage, club selection, what they had for dinner last night etc

but thats the point of the scorecard ruling. and with video and TV, it makes it even more relevant. if someone tries to sign for the wrong score they deff should be disqualified, given the fact that its so easy now to cross reference the score. and i disagree that the rule should not be a broad public concern. agreed that people dont need to follow it closely in a weekend/non-competitive games, but they should be a aware of it, its tradition and place in the game. I dont want it to sound like Im one for tradition over technology, as i fully believe the game evolves and changes. but the idea of handing in your card with the understanding that you'll validify its correctness up against the harshest penalty that can be given speaks to the only way in which the idea of the "self ref" nature of the game can be continued. If that rule was weakened, there would really be no need to keep score for each other at all, since youre basically saying that scoring can now be done by either a ref or automated scoring system, because its basically not up to the player to ensure its correctnesssince as the penalty is not that harsh. and then you open up the game to the idea that only a ref can truly enforce the rules. basically it becomes a slippery slope, which is why i feel the scorecard rule is so important.

[allin]

without being as emotional as james and calling it the stupidest golf article ever

I didn't realize interpretations was that extensive. Doesn't that suggest that the rules may be out of control? Even if they aren't golf courses, different types of play, stroke, match, partners and the expansive playing field. Compare golf to football or baseballfor example. Mean it is almost impossible to account for every possible situation.

I think the integrity of the game would have a lot to do with this.

This is pretty close to what I said in the comments section following the article. I think the overriding principle behind rules is clear. To insure equity, fair play, and a framework for friendly competition. It just seems to me that these rules have become an awfully big factor, sometimes used by people as a tool to punish, gain advantage, or just become part of the story. When rules don't serve this purpose than there is a problem. I assume the reason behind not testing bunker stance has to do with maintaining the penalty for hitting into the bunker. I understand this. I am not sure what purpose is served by not allowing a player to remove a ball from a divot? Rub of the green has to do with luck that is intrinsic to play. Everyone has been 6 inches off the fairway in an awful lie, thats just the breaks. When the golfer lands in a divot in the fairway he is being penalized for a good shot. The penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard seems to be related to cheatng. Disqualifying such a player is a no brainer. I think Cody's point might be that disqualifying someone who accidently added a stroke is pretty harsh, they weren't trying to gain an advantage. The famous ones like Stadlers building a stance, his sons damaged club, all came in situations where the person gained no advantage. I think that when applying a penalty for a rule violation. That should be the first consideration. I feel when the some of the rules and penalties are not viewed as equitable then it becomes easier for many to justify ignoring all the rules.

[Thrash13]

why do think its absurd to DQ someone tho?

Signing the incorrect scorecard has nothing to do with how well a golfer played on the course that day. You are the one that said golf is a battle between golfer and the course. The golfer shouldn't have to battle the scorecard as well.

I just think it's crazy to DQ someone from a tournament when they were one number off on a scorecard. Hell, didn't someone get DQed for signing someone else's scorecard by accident? If I shoot a 70, but I put a 71 on the scorecard, I shouldn't be DQed. If I shoot a 70 and put a 69 on the scorecard, penalize me a stroke or two for my wrongdoings (making it a 72 instead). But to DQ someone completely is a little ridiculous. Like I said in another topic, I need to go back and read the rules in their entirety. I've misunderstood or overlooked a lot in the past, and a little refresher wouldn't hurt. And it's not the end of the world if none get changed. It won't make much of a difference for me because I play only for fun. I just think the technology and times have left some of the rules in the dust. There is nothing wrong with being a little old school and new school.

[jamesduncan]

Signing the incorrect scorecard has nothing to do with how well a golfer played on the course that day. You are the one that said golf is a battle between golfer and the course. The golfer shouldn't have to battle the scorecard as well.

i guess this is where we fundimentally differ.

the only way one can determine who beat the course on a given day is by the number of strokes it took a given player to play the 18 holes. if we're are all going to battle the course, we have to all be secure in the knowledge that everyone will put their own participation on the line to say that "yes, this is indeed the score that i shot" That is the way eveyone can know that they indeed got beaten by a better score.

I just think it's crazy to DQ someone from a tournament when they were one number off on a scorecard. Hell, didn't someone get DQed for signing someone else's scorecard by accident?

again if this is the only mechanism to determine who actually scored the best round, its not crazy.

Either we let ourselves ref ourselves and therefore allow ourselves to be DQed if we try to fugde it (and yes, we have to include things by accident) or we have refs and have the scoring done for us. theres really no middle ground because like has been said, interpetation of grey areas would some how need to be addressed and in the case of accidents, exeptions given. and given human nature (and pros natures!) we would start to need a way of dealing with all the expections. its not like baseball or football where theres only one game happening. theres how many rounds on a given tournament day?..think of all the probs that would arise if we needed to have a commitee to deal with ALL the expections and grey areas on a given day of a pro event or how many rulings would be needed as a result of "oh gee i made a mistake on my card, i was really a 4" Its just human nature, which is why the rules of golf (in this regard atleast) are pretty spot on. Remember, rules issues have happened for years and years, and the rules commitees have had years and years to understand human nature. And human nature doesnt change like the technology. ok we'll ive made my point ad nausuem! ill give you all a well needed break now! ;)

[Rafcin]

I didn't realize interpretations was that extensive...

it's nuts. To say it's out of control is an understatement...

If you check out the USGA publications - the "Decisions on Golf" is a book with 774 pages. The "Rules of Golf" is a book with 174 pages