Shoulder turn

[saevel25]

Do the shoulders rotate around the spine in a way to maintain the rotation to the ground, what happens if the left shoulder doesn't drop enough in the backswing?

[DavidFehertysBike]

Drop? You dont really want to force your shoulder down and stuff. Your shoulders should stay pretty level.

[iacas]

Do the shoulders rotate around the spine in a way to maintain the rotation to the ground, what happens if the left shoulder doesn't drop enough in the backswing?

You no longer turn in a circle and the shoulders turn too flat.

The shoulders - to turn in a circle - should turn around your spine perpendicular to your spine (at roughly your shoulder blades). That's 35 degrees or so for a mid-iron.

Drop? You dont really want to force your shoulder down and stuff. Your shoulders should stay pretty level.

I would disagree. Your shoulders can not turn in a circle if your shoulders rotate level. They'll constantly be shifting planes and you'll have to lift the arms up to complete the backswing. Can some players do this? Yes. Do I believe it's the most efficient way to swing the golf club? No. Those are opinions, but the geometry and facts are that you can't turn your shoulders in a circle about your spine unless your shoulder goes down (and your other goes up) because we play golf on a tilted axis, not a horizontal one.

[DavidFehertysBike]

I do that. Its a pretty simple idea for me. Just keep everything where it starts and turn away. There shouldnt be much difference in a turn away from the ball standing strait up vs one bending over. Its the same thing.

[iacas]

I do that. Its a pretty simple idea for me. Just keep everything where it starts and turn away. There shouldnt be much difference in a turn away from the ball standing strait up vs one bending over. Its the same thing.

It's not the same thing. You're bent over for one and not for the other.

Top image is a flat shoulder turn (viewing from slightly above so you can see it). Middle image is a proper shoulder turn (viewed slightly to the right so you can see the arc again). Left image would be your shoulders rotating... well, in a circle but on a vertical plane (perpendicular to the horizontal plane). See also: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...ng-in-a-Circle

[saevel25]

thanks for the confirmation, i always seem that i am never center in my swing, i think i am way to shallow on the shoulder turn.

[DavidFehertysBike]

It's not the same thing. You're bent over for one and not for the other.

I dunno..it still seems like the same concept to me. Youre just doing one on an inclined angle. If you twirl a rubberband on your finger on different angles the general movement of the object in motion is the same....

[iacas]

I dunno..it still seems like the same concept to me. Youre just doing one on an inclined angle. If you twirl a rubberband on your finger on different angles the general movement of the object in motion is the same....

Yeah, the movement is still "circular" but on a tilted angle there's a "downward" component to the left shoulder on the backswing. It's not like this:

Drop? You dont really want to force your shoulder down and stuff. Your shoulders should stay pretty level.

You obviously don't want to "force" your left shoulder down BELOW the plane, but keeping them "flat" is "forcing" them above the plane.

[DavidFehertysBike]

Yeah, the movement is still "circular" but on a tilted angle there's a "downward" component to the left shoulder on the backswing. It's not like this:

We're saying the same thing, then. I just picture it differently in my head.

[iacas]

We're saying the same thing, then. I just picture it differently in my head.

Okay. I'll go with that.

[saevel25]

Could you say a good drill might be to stand up straight, turn the shoulders 90 degrees then bend at the hips, this would be the position needed to be at the top, well at least with shoulder turn?

[iacas]

Could you say a good drill might be to stand up straight, turn the shoulders 90 degrees then bend at the hips, this would be the position needed to be at the top, well at least with shoulder turn?

No. If you did that your head would be 18 inches to the right of where it started.

If you TILT LEFT then you'd be fine. Since your shoulders are rotated 90 degrees tilting left puts your head back down towards the golf ball. Remember, the best players in the world all do three things on their backswing: they rotate, they stand up, and they tilt to the left. If you literally bent over at the hips again you'd not be doing the latter two and your head, again, would be 18 inches behind where it was at setup. I get what you mean, and I'm not trying to be pedantic about it, but it's important so I feel I must. You stand up and tilt left - every good golfer does to some extent because no good golfer moves his head 18 inches to the right on the backswing. You've all see the video I filmed of Dave with "spine angle" and "inclination" to the ground - same thing. Stand up, rotate, tilt left. BAM - head's there and shoulders have turned in a circle.

[saevel25]

Ok i guess described it wrong. I did mean that after taking the shoulder turn that i would bend at hips, but keep myself center in the stance. I guess the way i described it would seem like i would be bending over my right leg, sorry about that.

[iacas]

Ok i guess described it wrong. I did mean that after taking the shoulder turn that i would bend at hips, but keep myself center in the stance. I guess the way i described it would seem like i would be bending over my right leg, sorry about that.

Thanks for the clarification, but no, you would not bend at the hips. Again, you stand up, turn, and tilt to the left. The tilting left is primarily more in the thoracic region of your back, but no, there's no "bend at the hips." Any flexion (bending) at the hips that you have is removed as part of your backswing.

If you truly "bent at the hips" your head would go 18 inches or so behind the ball. Please re-read what I said and watch the video. I think you'll find it illuminating. EVERY good player stands up (out of their "bend from the hips" at setup), tilts left, and turns.

[keiko]

Just turn your back to the target going back and turn your chest to the target coming through. For some that is 90* turn and 45* hips, for others it is 70* turn and 35* for hips, you get my drift. The main thing is when you actually turn your back to the target while keeping your head steady, you will feel coil, that is power.

[allin]

You no longer turn in a circle and the shoulders turn too flat.

If your really turn your shoulders in a level manner I don't see how you could keep your arms from being to far away from your body and having a very large loop at the top before transitioning into the downswing. Isn't this really a feel for golfers who get to steep? Something that some people feel but doesn't really happen in a good swing?

[colin007]

eric, if on video my head remains in pretty much the same spot thru my backswing, would that mean that i have stood up, turned, and tilted to the left?

[iacas]

If your really turn your shoulders in a level manner I don't see how you could keep your arms from being to far away from your body and having a very large loop at the top before transitioning into the downswing. Isn't this really a feel for golfers who get to steep? Something that some people feel but doesn't really happen in a good swing?

The thing is too many people DO turn their shoulders "too flat."

eric, if on video my head remains in pretty much the same spot thru my backswing, would that mean that i have stood up, turned, and tilted to the left?

Yep. Every good pro does it to some extent, and having the right proportion of those three moves are what keep your head steady.