Fescue/Deep rough rulings

[JML22]

So just in case we play for money sometime soon on this really hard course
if you start moving fescue around or deep rough and your ball moves
that's a stroke right?

[Rexx]

Yes, and you need to replace it back to its original position.

[Zeph]

Source: USGA
Ball at rest moved
18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment

a. General

When a player's ball is in play, if:

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or

(ii)equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.
If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

[JML22]

What about stepping down the fescue way in front of the ball is that legal?
not that its worth the risk cause chances are you're gonna move the ball regardless
i just want to know this stuff in case we paly for money some tmie

[JWL1957]

If you dont ground your club....there is no penalty.

[Zeph]

Source: USGA

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play A player must not improve or allow to be improved: · the position or lie of his ball, · the area of his intended stance or swing, · his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or · the area in which he is to drop or place a ball, by any of the following actions: · pressing a club on the ground, · moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds), · creating or eliminating irregularities of surface, · removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or · removing dew, frost or water. However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs: · in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball, · in fairly taking his stance, · in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made, · in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or · on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).

If you dont ground your club....there is no penalty.

What now?

[Fourputt]

What about stepping down the fescue way in front of the ball is that legal?

No it isn't. You are not allowed to do anything which will improve your lie, stance, or the area of your intended swing. Nor can you do anything which will improve your line of play.

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play A player must not improve or allow to be improved: · the position or lie of his ball, · the area of his intended stance or swing, · his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or · the area in which he is to drop or place a ball, by any of the following actions: · pressing a club on the ground, · moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds), · creating or eliminating irregularities of surface, · removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or · removing dew, frost or water. However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs: · in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball, · in fairly taking his stance, · in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,

[Shripe]

So it seems like grounding the club ("lightly") in the process of address is okay? I'm just trying to make sense of this so I know I'm not really supposed to be penalizing myself... given that I play at a nearly goat track par 3 course with longer grass. I'm trying to take the rules seriously as I keep learning (not only how to play, but the rules as well lol)

[Fourputt]

So it seems like grounding the club ("lightly") in the process of address is okay? I'm just trying to make sense of this so I know I'm not really supposed to be penalizing myself... given that I play at a nearly goat track par 3 course with longer grass. I'm trying to take the rules seriously as I keep learning (not only how to play, but the rules as well lol)

The key is just not to take a chance. The lie is what determines how aggressive you can be in grounding the club. There are times when I address the ball with the club as much as 5 or 6 inches away because that is the closest I can get without risking some movement of the ball. With time and experience you will learn when you have to be careful and when you can take a proper address.

[zeg]

There are times when I address the ball with the club as much as 5 or 6 inches away because that is the closest I can get without risking some movement of the ball.

In his annotated rule book, Tom Watson really presses on the point that sometimes it's best not to address the ball at all. Outside a bunker, you've addressed a ball when you've taken your stance and grounded your club, and after you've done that, any movement of the ball is deemed to be your fault---i.e., a penalty stroke. So on a very windy day, he suggests not grounding your club at all to avoid the possibility of this penalty. It's good advice for this situation also.

[Fourputt]

In his annotated rule book, Tom Watson really presses on the point that sometimes it's best not to address the ball at all. Outside a bunker, you've addressed a ball when you've taken your stance and grounded your club, and after you've done that, any movement of the ball is deemed to be your fault---i.e., a penalty stroke. So on a very windy day, he suggests not grounding your club at all to avoid the possibility of this penalty. It's good advice for this situation also.

By 5 inches away I meant that far back and off the ground along the same arc as my takeaway. That way I'm still in position to make decent contact on the downswing. Had one of those shots in the native rough yesterday.... grass 2 feet tall, but with a mostly open path behind the ball. just popped a PW (the longest club that could possibly be hit from the lie) out and down the fairway about 75 yards.

I would never ground the club 5 inches behind the ball.... that's a sure invitation to laying the sod over the ball. And in deep rough, it's almost always going to be a penalty on the player if the ball moves whether he has addressed it or not. If he has been near the ball, or taken his stance, it has to be assumed that he was the reason for the ball to move. I've seen a ball move when a player took a practice swing in deep rough nearly 2 feet away from it... he incurred a 1 stroke penalty. Almost like being in a hazard... you must exercise extreme caution when you play a stroke from deep grass. Almost any action you take can be deemed as causing the ball to move.

[Shripe]

The key is just not to take a chance. The lie is what determines how aggressive you can be in grounding the club. There are times when I address the ball with the club as much as 5 or 6 inches away because that is the closest I can get without risking some movement of the ball. With time and experience you will learn when you have to be careful and when you can take a proper address.

Thanks for the advice... However, how should we be interpreting "lightly?" I can understand not wanting to risk it in general, but how much is really too much, that would cause it to be a penalty rather than a permissible "light" grounding? Haha.. maybe I should make another thread creating a whole list of interpretable rules. :P Sorry if I'm getting too deep into the issue here.

[zeg]

Fourputt: yeah, I wasn't trying to question your advice or technique, but your post reminded me of his suggestions, which really deal with a tangentially related problem. I do the same as you describe when hitting out of junk.

Shripe: I wouldn't worry so much about the exact definition of "lightly" as the intention of the rule: you are allowed to set up your shot, and doing so will inevitably have some effect on the grass. If you're just setting down your club to prepare for the shot, you're fine. If you're setting it down with the purpose of mashing down grass that's in your way, you're breaking the rule. (And, of course, if the ball moves you take a penalty, but that's a separate concern.)

[JML22]

I dont get why people prop up there ••••in balls in deep rough/ fescue
it pisses me off
how can you say you shoot low 80s or something when you prop up your ••••ing ball

[Fourputt]

Thanks for the advice... However, how should we be interpreting "lightly?" I can understand not wanting to risk it in general, but how much is really too much, that would cause it to be a penalty rather than a permissible "light" grounding? Haha.. maybe I should make another thread creating a whole list of interpretable rules. :P Sorry if I'm getting too deep into the issue here.

Lightly means that no more than the weight of the club rests on the grass. Beyond that point you are pressing the grass down and improving your lie.

Decision 18-2b/5:

18-2b/5 When Club Grounded in Grass Q. When is a club considered grounded in long grass? A. When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club.