Stack n Tilt - Giving it a fair chance

[Floger]

First, about my situation (get comfortable)...

Being new to the game (just 3 years) I am at the point of choosing whether to find another hobby or find a method of learning that works because I simply love the game. But I am thouroughly frustrated. I shoot in the upper 80s to mid 90s but my swing doesn't feel like I can trust it, I know I am always changing it in some manner either subconsciencely or with intention. The driver, it might as well stay in the garage. I trust that club like Elin trusts Tiger. It's all over the place and quiet embarrassing. I have mastered recovery, seriously. Hitting over trees from the other fairway, off the side of hills, etc. I don't know what it's like to play my second shot on the short grass.

I am re-reading SnT with the intention of putting it to use and correct this swing and enjoy the game. I skimmed it before with curiosity. I don't ever expect to be club champion or really to break 80, but I know it can be alot more fun when the success of my round is how many balls I didn't lose.

I agree with alot of what SnT says - that some, if not most instructors want to teach a swing that has too many variables which creates a mental swing checklist that would have me standing over the ball 10 minutes before initiating the swing. That's where I am at now. Too many tips I have gathered from reading, watching videos all starting playing as I get in my stance.

This "modern" golf swing also leads us hackers to believe that we are not flexible enough for the correct swing. SnT seemingly (in print) makes this totally untrue. Also the authors of SnT states that practically no golfer aims the club straight at the target. I thought I had to!! like that was rule #1. A novice like me has spent many, many hours aiming AT the target and getting pissed when it doesn't go there and trying with little or no success to make that result happen with a tip in a golf magazine or searching thru YouTube for a video. I was a field goal kicker in college and I aimed at the space in between the yellow poles, not the play clock with hope to "draw" the ball between the posts. My understanding of the arc I used to kick helped me understand the SnT principle that angular momentum makes sense, not bringing the club straight back as my instructors taught.

I have taken lessons in the past, 10 total, with 3 different instructors due to their availability and one left town. All of them had very different swing theories and none worked, and believe me I tried. I spend at least 90 minutes a day in the evening working on my swing and I play twice weekly on average. I cannot find an instructor that teaches SnT and when I mention it, they laugh. Yeah, because there is no money in "cures". So I am on a quest with the book to do this on my own.

Now that I have that off my chest, my questions are for those that have implemented SnT.


1) Overall, are you happy with the book?

2) Have you improved, if so, how much?

3) What area did you see the greatest improvement - i.e. distance, accuracy, etc.

4) How long from the time you started the program until you saw consistent play you were happy with and a swing you could trust and became natural?

5) Did you use any other methods of instruction while reading SnT?

Thanks much and sorry for the novel.

[Gerald]

I personally feel it is a good book, I like the fundementals, but I also like to think for myself. I have been playing golf for about 25 years now, and every few years there are a bunch of guys coming up with method ABC or DEF etc. All methods work for some time.

Same with S&T.....; you will be practicing a lot and whichever method you use, if you practice a lot, you will get results !!!!

I incorporated some elements of S&T; in my personal traditional swing (like weight forward, real clubrelease, full body turn, etc.) and I think the golf swing isn't imprinting a couple of unnatural moves. There have been sooooooooooo many winners of a lot of tournaments, that had an awful swing, and made lots of strange but natural personal moves, still came through the ball in a correct way, sending the ball to the hole.

Even looking at you tube movies of golfers who the book says they improved 90 or even 300 places in Pro Rankings 6 months after they started using S&T; still keep the right knee bended in the backswing etc.

I am not saying it is crap, but it isn't the holy must either. I like it whenever people think about the golfswing or the modern rules of ballflight, it certaintly brings some new insights ..... but sorry for the S&T; guys ...... in three years they will be following the next XYZ method....... Bookshelfs are filled with methods ..... and they all work !!!

[iacas]

Being new to the game (just 3 years) I am at the point of choosing whether to find another hobby or find a method of learning that works because I simply love the game.

I'll get to a bit of what you say below in a bit, but if your index is 13 and you shoot in the 80s, you're better than roughly half of the golfers out there and a good percentage of the people on forums like this one... don't be too frustrated.

Also, you're about five hours from our Academy here in Erie, PA. You should try to come out. Five hours would make you one of the closest students... Just today a guy from California came in. He's here for a few days. Another student just returned to Russia after spending two months with us. (I just got notification that you responded to the schools thread. I'll PM you about that soon.)

My understanding of the arc I used to kick helped me understand the SnT principle that angular momentum makes sense, not bringing the club straight back as my instructors taught.

That's cool - glad you could use your other experiences to help that part of the instruction make sense.

2) Have you improved, if so, how much?

I'm an atypical example. Without knowing it, I'd spent years developing my own Stack and Tilt swing without a few components. I lacked the proper hand depth (I kind of got there later, but it was out of sequence and the club had already tipped back out a bit), I lacked the proper hip turn, and I lacked the good push forward through the ball.

My head and shoulder pitch, however, was really good and isn't anything I've had to work on. I discovered quite early that if I wanted to hit the ball consistently, my head (upper center) had to stay still. I figured out how to do it without really knowing that I was "standing up and side tilting" as I rotated. I've added a club or two with my irons (I was hitting my 8I about 165 this evening with what felt like 3/4 swings - it's hot and humid but 155 is a 20-yard improvement over my old "best" swings). I've got a controllable draw. I hit my driver far more consistently. I went from around a 2.0 index to a scratch golfer (and now instructor).

3) What area did you see the greatest improvement - i.e. distance, accuracy, etc.

Both. Hitting the ball squarely instead of my old slightly "spin-out" type move (which produced a perfectly playable pull fade when I could pull it off, which was fairly often) has helped with both areas.

4) How long from the time you started the program until you saw consistent play you were happy with and a swing you could trust and became natural?

I'll answer for my students... 90% of them are given one piece per lesson, and if they improve that piece only 10% they're that much closer to being better. Very, very few of the students we teach "get worse before they get better" or anything like that. The key is to work on one piece and get that nailed down before you implement the next piece or it can be hell. Nobody can think of 4 things at a time in the golf swing.

For me, I still work on things, and when I identify something I want to improve I see immediate improvement. Not every shot is "a ton" better, but every shot in which I do the thing even a little bit better is at least a little bit better. On the golf course, knowing my tendencies and how they affect ball flight (and knowing the proper ball flight laws), I can correct and adjust. I had a HORRIBLE ball-striking day when I played my PAT a few months ago, but just knowing a few basic principles and the ball flight laws let me scrape the ball around the course, stay out of trouble the entire day, and pass on my first attempt. Good luck. Let me know if you have any questions. And I'll PM you shortly about the Cinci school idea. As for what Gerald says, I respectfully disagree that in "three years" there will be some other method. To say that is to misunderstand where Stack and Tilt comes from and how long the principles have been employed. Your right knee example is not correct either - nobody ever said they LOCK their right knee straight, but they definitely decrease the flex and "straighten" it to allow their hips to move in a circle on their inclined plane. You can't do that if you maintain the flex in the knees they have at address.

[melchior]

I just got the book (literally within the last 5 days); burned through it cause so much if it did make sense (and like you, only really been serious about golf within the last 2 years, including this one). I "improved" the next time I went out (2 days ago).

The reason why I say "improved" is that I never knew I could hit the ball so far with so little effort. Before this year, now that I know what actually hitting the sweet spot means, I've *never* hit it before. The ball consistently went 20+ yards farther than I was used to; which caused a higher score solely that I overshot a lot of greens/doglegs that I never would have before with my old swing.

One example: I was playing a dogleg left (hole about 325; veers off about 20* to the left at 190 to the far rough on the corner that day.) The tees were back of what they normally were, so I pulled out my 3w instead of my 3i that I typically hit to keep it out of the rough. I decide that I could use the tee-in-armpit drill on this hole just to see what it feels like (I used to have an outside-in swing; so I knew this would be a huge issue). It felt like the most awkward swing ever but it went straight and took off like a rocket with about 3/4th power trying to keep that tee there. I cut the corner of the dogleg and was about 100 yards away when I don't think I've ever hit my 3w 210 with full power before; even with roll.

I was sold right then and there, and so I went out to the driving range today to really work on it again; I was hitting my 6i with a 3/4 swing as far as I used to hit my 4i. Easily gained 2 clubs on all aspects; and I never slice it anymore. I'm still working on pushes, but I tend to fix that by having the ball farther ahead in my stance than I was always used to.

I had more sweet spot hits in my first 20 balls on the range than I have in my life just by trying to keep my body still. I never would've thought of that without the book; and it got me excited to really golf again. It's always been a great pasttime, but never anything I thought I'd really get down and drop my score. After working with this for under a week; I can almost imagine lower 40s scores on my (relatively easy; 5800 yd, par 70) 9 hole course. If I had a good round before, I'd always be around 52-54 with an (uncharacteristic) 49.

My first time with the SnT I was at 57; I can't wait to go out and golf again; just due to the fact that I finally *know* what I should be doing, and what I'm doing wrong if I mis-aim it (which is still often). I've *never* been this excited to go out and play; with a friend or by myself, and SnT is 100% to blame.

[podunker]

Ok…you asked for it…………you got it. Be ready for a long read!

Background Information first. I started playing golf about 20 years in my early twenties. My older brother worked at a range when he was young and had played from a young age. He is eight years older than me. I was a pretty good athlete in high school and even had some college offers. I was so busy with football, basketball, and etc. that I never got into golf. I went into the service at age 20. When I would go home on leave, to spend time with my brother, I played golf with him. Soon I got the bug. He was a pretty good golfer as you could imagine. I struggled like everyone does in the beginning. A weak fade or slice was my stock shot, when I made good contact with the ball. I got frustrated very quickly. Being a good athlete, I couldn’t understand what was so hard about this game. Having athletic ability had made it easier for my friends to learn it. The one thing they had over me was that they all played baseball and softball, I didn’t. Maybe that is why I struggled so much initially. . The one area that I think my athletic ability helped was the short game, more specific, putting. I have always been a good putter, and could read greens well.

Anyway, as the years past, I got a little better by reading golf magazines and playing for quarters with my friends and brother who were better than me. I figured out how to correct my weak slice and eventually learned how to hit a draw. It was a long process. My major swing break through came about five years ago. I started using that reverse loop swing similar to Furyk. Kind of like Haney was having Ray Romano do on the Haney Project this year. It kept me from coming over the top on a more consistent basis. I saw big improvements in contact and distance when I started swinging from the inside out. That’s when I started hitting a draw. I improved so much over the next few years that I even won our club championship two years ago, shooting 76-70, and beating my brother. That 70 was my low round ever, and still is. So it couldn’t have happened at a better time. I have shot several 33’s for nine, with 32 being my low nine. I have shot 70 a few more times since, but still have not broken into the 60’s.

Last year I was back and forth with the two-plane swing (reverse loop), and conventional swing. Mainly because my game was inconsistent. I was shooting 74-75 on good days, and 84-85 on other days. The good days were mostly because of my short game. When I started hooking the ball too much with the two-plane swing, I would go back to the conventional swing. Eventually I would start making bad contact with the conventional swing, and go back to the two-plane swing. The fat iron shot was my nemesis. After watching the Haney Project last year with Barkley I discovered something that helped me with my fat shots. They had some professor showing how your head had to be still for you to bring the club back to the same place it was at set up. I think he was using a ruler to show it. I knew I had to keep my head still, so I started keeping more weight on my left side and not moving weight back to the right on the back swing. It was the second big break through for me. My irons started to actually compress the ball! I also gained some more yardage. I still went back and forth between both swings, but kept my weight on the left side or at least tried. I felt like things were better, but still shot an 81-74 in the club championship. My primary miss was now a thin or toe shot at this point, from raising my head on the down swing I think. That is how I ended last year going into winter.

Over the winter I started to get back into golf mode and stumbled on a swing on one of the Internet boards called “Stack and Tilt”. Once I started reading about it, I remembered the Golf Digest articles that had talked about it. I scoured the Internet for more information. Some thought it was a fad and would pass, and some people swore by it. I took a long look at my game and knew it was my ball striking that was keeping me from getting any better. I just didn’t hit enough greens and fairways. Most of my birdies were coming on par 5’s that I was either chipping in two or on the green. I hardly ever birdied par 4’s and getting a par on a par 3 was good. My putter would save me more often than not. I usually had at least one bad hole a round, double bogey or worse. Mostly because of a driver or 3 wood going out of bounds or in a hazard.

I decided to go for it and ordered the “Stack and Tilt” book in late February. I read through it in a couple days and went out with a 6 iron and tried some things it suggested. Immediately, and I mean immediately I was hitting the ball better with my 6 iron. A nice little baby draw, or push draw as they call it. The book was very good at explaining ball flight things that I did not know before. Needless to say I was hooked. Like many, I initially struggled with my woods. But kept plugging along and was able to hit them also, but not as far as I was. My irons were going farther though. I also had a tendency to hook some shots early on, but I just weakened my grip like the book said and it fixed that for the most part. After a month or so of hitting balls and playing a few holes I thought I was on to something special. Then, out to the blue, I lost it. I couldn’t hit anything solid and started even shanking some shots. This went on for a week or so, and I just knew it was something I was doing wrong with the swing…….not the swing itself. However, when I played in a competitive round and lost it, I reverted back to my reverse loop swing to stay respectable. I really started to question it at that point. I decided to have my wife tape me and see if I was doing what I actually thought or felt like I was doing at certain points in the swing. The best decision I ever made. I was NOT doing what I felt like I was doing. I was getting way too long on my backswing like my old swing used to be. My right arm was not staying connected to my body, etc., etc., etc.

It has been three months now. I have got it back, lost it again, and got it back in that time. The big problem is that I start to get comfortable with it and then my old habits start creeping back in. Too long of a backswing, not staying connected, to much wrist hinge or cup. I am continuing to tape my swing and have my wife watch my backswing when I practice. When I do it right, it is sweet. When I don’t do it right, it sucks. It is all about getting that feeling you can correlate to what you are trying to do when you do it right. I have really struggled with that. Plus, not having an instructor, really makes it much harder. I did find one break through video from Dana Dahlquist teaching a young player, Clarence I think, that really helped me last week. Dana had him taking his backswing in stages or segments and stopping. He would have him get in his setup. Then hinge his wrist up. Then go back with the club to the parallel to the ground point, making sure his right arm stayed close to the side. Then he had him turn his hips and shoulders without moving his arms. His arms just naturally moved back when he straightened his right leg and turned his left shoulder down. Then he followed through and hit the ball maintaining the wedge as long as possible and stopping the follow through correctly. I immediately started doing that drill on my own, and it has done wonders for me. I have been going to Dave Wedzick’s golf evolution site for a month or so also, and looked at some of his teaching videos. Yesterday I shot an even par 72 with a double bogey on the last hole and a shank that went out of bounds on hole 15. I got stuck in the trees during the double bogey. Because I tried to go over a big tree with a 4 iron and hit the top of it, dropping it down in a bunch of them. It had nothing to do with my swing, just poor judgment on my part. Either way, it was the best ball striking round I have ever played. I shot 33 on the front and it seemed easy. Because I was hitting greens and fairways.

I know the swing works, period. I know I still have a lot of work to do to learn it correctly, especially with no instructor. Although my wife and I are thinking seriously about taking a short vacation to Erie, Pennsylvania, to get some instruction. I may also use Dave Wezdick’s evolver program also. I also picked the book back up tonight to reread it, now that I have a better understanding of the swing. I honestly feel like I am on the verge of breaking that 60’s barrier. I am as excited about my game right now as I ever have been.

An a side not, I started teaching my wife to play last year with the thought of keeping her weight on her left side and not moving her head. I continued to help her learn this summer by giving her some of the principles in the book, and she broke 50 the other day. Believe it or not she shot a 46!

Take my word for it…………………it will help you become a better ball striker.

[Jonnydanger81]

Just my quick response regarding my limited experience with S&T; over the last 2 months.

1) Overall, are you happy with the book?

Yes. Even if you don't want to 100% commit to the S&T; swing for whatever reason, the book has so much good information on ball striking, ball flight laws and general swing commentary that it is by far worth the read, and it's not a long read at that.

2) Have you improved, if so, how much?

It's hard to say how much I've improved stroke wise but my ball striking has improved immensely.

3) What area did you see the greatest improvement - i.e. distance, accuracy, etc.

Ball striking would be the most improved, then I'd say it's close between distance and accuracy since I'm hitting better. Before my 8i was 140, maybe 150 when I really struck it well, but now it's 155 or so all the time. Driver is a lot more consistent at 260-270, still a slight fade but I'm ok with it.

4) How long from the time you started the program until you saw consistent play you were happy with and a swing you could trust and became natural?

I didn't go "balls to wall" S&T.; I took in certain parts that helped my swing, namely keeping my weight forward, understanding the arc of the club and my hands and pushing my hips through. I don't even know if my swing looks like a S&T; swing but I know how things feel and I know where my weight is during the swing and how I'm taking my hands and club away. I had been golfing for quite some time before I started S&T;, but I'd say after 2-3 range sessions I saw improvement on the range where I felt the new swing working, then another 3-4 times out on the course when I really started trusting the new swing that I saw good improvement.

5) Did you use any other methods of instruction while reading SnT?

Not really.

[nuck81]

1) Overall, are you happy with the book?

Very Happy, I've found it to be one of the clearest and easiest to understand instructional books around. If someone asked me what book I would suggest for someone just starting then I would give the the S&T; book.

2) Have you improved, if so, how much?

Not really, but it doesn't have much to do with S&T.; I'm really just a beginner, but have been working and improving so hard so fast that I've hit my first wall. I broke 90 About a week and a half ago, and now I can't seem to even make contact with the ball. But it happens, and I'm not too worried about it. This is a good opportunity to break down certain aspects of my swing and rebuild them into something more solid. Like wrist action under Fault tree #1

3) What area did you see the greatest improvement - i.e. distance, accuracy, etc.

Ball Flight. Since Implementing S&T; I have virtually eliminated all movement to the right from my ball path. I haven't sliced anything in weeks and even my driver seems to only move left (mostly)

4) How long from the time you started the program until you saw consistent play you were happy with and a swing you could trust and became natural?

I've been doing it for about a month, but am not quite there yet.

5) Did you use any other methods of instruction while reading SnT?

I took lessons (but only a short game lesson since reading S&T;) and I have read MANY other swing theory books, and the Rotella books...