The 'C' word... Clones

[ColinMB]

Greets,

I used the searchy tool and didn't find too much on this subject. I thought I'd ask the forum users what they think of clones, good or bad.

I personally can't help looking at them once in a while. I've spent an ungodly amount of money on clubs in my 3 years of golfing. Sometimes I think it's fair to say that it would be nice to save... a thousand bucks on a set, or even several hundred on a long club.

I won't list the URL, but in reading a review of a Callaway iron, this website mentions the clone version. It looks nearly identical, promises the same features but costs about 70% less. I've heard some sites use the old analogy of the 'IBM' computer vs. 'clones' that came out later using components made by the same manufacturers (but at a fraction of the cost of an IBM). I'm not sure if that analogy is too relevant but it's a common one.

Have you ever used any? Do you currently use them? What's your experience with them?

[allin]

The original IBM PC was made with off the shelf components anyone could buy. Golf clubs that are actual clones are not legal. There are however many reputable component companies. Golfsmith, Maltby, Dynacraft. I do think to get the most out of them you have to be more knowledgeable about equipment and your particular needs.

[GreensDruid]

I don't have any direct experience with clones. My father bought a Taylormade Rescue knockoff in Florida for a fraction of the price of the real thing a couple of years ago. He thought it was fine and couldn't tell much difference between it and the Rescue that he owned.

I have a big problem with companies who try to pass off their products as someone else's. I have no problem with a company producing a golf club that looks like another but I think it stinks when they try to name or logo a club to make it look like the real thing, and I won't buy that kind of club.

I've been getting interested in learning how to build clubs - might be a nice diversion for our long cold winters in NH. Once you get past the start up costs for tools, the cost seems pretty reasonable and I'll be interested to see whether the clubs perform as well as the big brands.

[georgep]

Clones bad ... components maybe good. Knockoffs of popular clubs are exactly akin to buying a Rolex on a street corner. Chances are the second hand won't sweep, and it will turn your wrist green. Not to mention you're supporting the unscrupulous theft of R&D; and design work by OEM companies. Beware of clones.

But as Allin said, there are many fine "component" companies, often these are start up manufacturers. Adding to his list, I'd also suggest looking at Alpha, SMT, Bang, Wishon, and Raven. With all of these you do need to know what you are looking for or find a respectable fitter who works with components. It is possible to get a very nice set up this way, perhaps even better than off-the-rack OEM. However, it's also easy to chew through money trying to find something that works (just like OEMs).

Additionally, component clubs generally will not hold their value. Don't expect to be able to resell them, because most of the golfing public has never heard of them. That said, I would feel safe with any of these manufacturers from Allin's or my lists.

[GreensDruid]

George,

Good point on resale. Last month I just had a Wishon driver made for me which I really like. But I doubt very much I'd be able to sell it for much. No matter, I plan on keeping it around for a while.

I agree with you on clones. Chances are you won't get a very well made club and I don't like supporting pirates.

I'd be interested in knowing people's views on the big club companies. Do you think they're gouging the golfing public or is their markup reasonable? Are they making a good profit or struggling? I don't see much information on this. Being a capitalist myself, I don't have a problem with charging a good price on your product and making a good profit. And the big club companies do seem to spend a great deal of time and effort on technology and R&D.;

[ColinMB]

Well to be clear, I guess I meant to say 'knock offs'. The company and clubs I'm seeing or not claiming to be actual big named companies. They simply state that they manufacture clubs with the same design principles and components as exact to the brand name as possible (and they state they do this within the legal limits of the law).

I would put up a URL (to show you exactly what I mean) but I don't want to 'advertise' for a site.... the best way I could explain it is to say they may have a club that 'compares' to ... a Callaway Fusion iron set. They claim to use a similar process and testing, and components to get a very close match to the actual product.

This one site even gives you 30 days to get a complete refund on their product if you're not completely satisfied with the club (no matter the condition). The site seems to be an e-tailer for a handfull of these types of club manufacturers.

After I posted this topic, I went back to the site and I compared every possible feature I could (without obviously swinging the club). The site has a ga-zillion testimonials but obviously that stuff can be fudged a lot. In my own comparisons I immediately noticed loft differences and this kind of made me scratch my head.

It's my understanding that in the past few years, big brand names like Nike, Callaway, and a few other big names have been _decreasing_ the loft of the clubs because they can get more yardage out of a club by using current technology (that is to say perimeter weighting, high MOI, etc).

So they claim you get a lot more distance from a club even with less loft. Well I compared lofts of a set of callaway irons and a set of nike irons and cross referenced them with the lofts of the 'comparable' knock offs and the clones are all 3-4* higher in loft.

I started looking at all the numbers and lie and length would be really similar between clone and brand name but the loft would be substantially increased on the similar clone club. Anyone know why you'd have to do that with a clone? (all I can guess is to suggest more distance by putting more height in your trajectory?)

Regardless, I do agree if you pick up a set of these clones, I wouldn't expect a resale market for them. BUT that being said, this company does full online fitting including shafts, lie measurements, and even grips.... even after all of that, we're talking 230 bucks for 1,100 dollar brand name clubs. I have to admit, for that kind of difference, I wonder if a mediocre hacker like me would even notice the difference?

[SuaSponteMn]

this company does full

It's really impossible to accurately fit someone without physically being there. You need to have the lie adjusted based on a dynamic fitting with a lie board and a sole sticker, as well as some impact tape, and that's just for lie angle.

Just to touch on clones and knockoff's quickly... Don't buy them, no matter how close they attempt to get to whatever it is they're trying to copy, it will never be the same club. Especially when you're talking about a club like the Fusion, where there is all sorts of technology in that insert. The knock-off thieves making these clubs can blow that off by dropping a simple piece of plastic in there and telling you otherwise. If you're truly interested in Callaway Fusions, buy Callaway Fusions; otherwise you might find yourself buying 3 sets as they fall apart. Also keep in mind the level of quality control, warranty, and manufacturer customer service will all be knocked off as well if you go the other way.

[Tommy]

Building on the comments offered by others, since taking up golf again after a significant period, I have paid full retail for name brand clubs, including Callaway (X14), Ping (I5) and Titleist (804.OS). As my game has improved, I was interested in trying 'blade' like irons and recently, priced components from Golfsmith to assemble myself. A full set, including head, shaft and grip, came to approximately $300 US. For the same price, I bought a used set of Mizuno MP30s. Although I re-gripped them and had the lie angle adjusted for a very small price, I ended up with a set that would have retailed new for approx. $1,000 - for the same price as the Golfsmith project.

My point being that you can buy a lightly used set of name brand irons for approximately the same price as 'copies' or component clubs. The name brand clubs would be, perhaps, 1-2 generations old but still of higher quality and better resale value than a no-name brand.

[knock-down]

Knock-off's are BAD - end of story!

How the club looks is the least important thing when it comes to making good performing equipment. Clones are designed to look like the real deal not perform like it.

[MilenkoD]

For all of the nay-sayers about knock-offs, have you tried them? Just want to hear your personal experiences why ther are "so bad" .

[Andross]

I currently own three set of clubs. My first set was given to me by my uncle which was a set of "I've never heard of brand" (Black Hawk) stainless steel cast iron with steel shafts. For someone who tried to break 100 they were good enough clubs. But this set of cheap cast stainless irons will LET YOU KNOW if where exactly you've hit the ball. Despite being cavity back design there was zero forgiveness nor does it dampen the vibration very well if at all. They were simply the harshest clubs I've ever come across.

At this time I was swinging a little bit better and really wanted to get a set of more decent clubs. However I was still playing around 100 mark and as a poor university student I couldn't justify spending $1000 or so on a set of brand name clubs. So I did the logical thing.... I bought a set of Clone cavity back clubs with graphite shafts!! (Callaway x-16 like design but had a totally different name)

Compare to my first set of clubs they were great clubs!! I immediately hit one club further and hitting the ball ceased to be a form of self torture (or to my wrist anyway)!
I've to say the look fairly ugly and there's no way anyone will fool themselves thinking this is the original x-16. But for a set of clubs that costs a bit more then 1/8 of the price of the original I think they were definately good value.

Despite all these positive points, I switched back to my "wrist nightmare" irons after a few rounds with the clone. The X-16 clones don't give me any feedback at all.....
I've no idea where I hit the ball on the club face and I could only judge by the flight of my ball. (Ok... I admit part of the problem was my inconsistent swing)

Currently I play a set of Callaway Fusion with steel shaft which gives me the combination of good feedback and forgiveness. But I liked the most was it's addictive butter-like feeling when I hit the center of the club!!

Now I play consistently in the high 80 range I don't think I'll ever want to use any clones. Having said that, I do thing those set of clones are A LOT BETTER than most of the beginner clubs out there!! (you know the ones that come with free staff bag and free buggie sold in mega-stores) I know because I just gave my clone away to a beginner friend who owns a set of those clubs and man... they were awful awful clubs. Despite having a brand name I think they were more expensive and inferior quality to the so called "clone clubs".

Conclusion: I don't think I will ever use a set of clone clubs in my life, but I do think they are better then some of the brand name beginner products out there.

[MilenkoD]

....this set of cheap cast stainless irons will LET YOU KNOW if where exactly you've hit the ball. Despite being cavity back design there was zero forgiveness nor does it dampen the vibration very well if at all. They were simply the harshest clubs I've ever come across.

This is exactly what my "name-brand" starter clubs feel like. Sometimes it feels like I just hit a granite boulder.

I think I'm still going to take a hard look at knock-offs. There are good-quality knock-offs and there are some pretty bad ones and even counterfiet ones. The k/o that I found are hard to belive in look and feel. for my handicap, a k/o is goining to play 99.9% the same as the real McCoy. Additionally, I get to choose the shaft..so in essence, i can get a far supperior set to that of a name brand, who for some, skimp on the shaft they often factory install.

[SuaSponteMn]

There are good-quality knock-offs and there are some pretty bad ones and even counterfiet ones. The k/o that I found are hard to belive in look and feel. for my handicap, a k/o is goining to play 99.9% the same as the real McCoy.

This statement is exactly why I would never buy knock-offs. I hate the idea of having to justify whether the product I'm using is up to snuff, or wondering if I bought the "good-quality" versus the "pretty bad ones". With clones you just never know until the clubhead is flying farther down the fairway than your golf ball. If you buy the real deal, there's never a doubt that your money went to a quality product and typically the customer service and warranties reflect that.

[MilenkoD]

This statement is exactly why I would never buy knock-offs. I hate the idea of having to justify whether the product I'm using is up to snuff, or wondering if I bought the "good-quality" versus the "pretty bad ones". With clones you just never know until the clubhead is flying farther down the fairway than your golf ball. If you buy the real deal, there's never a doubt that your money went to a quality product and typically the customer service and warranties reflect that.

The shop that sells them stands behind the product. They have a 90 day gurantee and 1 year warrantee. Infact, part of their clone process is that they'll measure me, put me on the monitor and build the set....let me play a few rounds and in 60 days come back and give them some feedback. At that point, free of charge, they will make any adjustments or shaft changes or swap-out the #3/#4 irons for hybrids if I choose. These were for x-18 k/o at 1/3 of the cost of the real club.

At Golfsmith, what do I get? A set of factory made clubs for more than double the price and if I don't like them?...tough s#!t, you have 90 days to return them for a higher priced item. Any adjustments, pull out your wallet and pay-up....yea, real nice....and what was their warranty again?

[SuaSponteMn]

Best of luck to you and your clones then...