Rules question

[Ignorant]

This question came up in a competition (did not happen as described here).

A player hits his ball appr. 10 inches from the hole with his second shot. He walks to the ball, takes his stance and grounds his putter. Just as he is about to start his takeaway a gust of wind starts rolling the ball towards the hole. As the ball is moving the player tries to hit it but misses. The ball falls into the hole.

How many strikes the player has so far and how should he continue?

[Fourputt]

The ball is not holed. One stroke penalty for causing his ball to move after address (Rule 18-2b). It must be replaced. He made a stroke at a moving ball - 2 stroke penalty (Rule 14-5), and I believe that the stroke counts as well. When the ball is replaced, he is lying 4 more than he was before the ball started to move. So he would be lying 6, hitting 7 for the tap-in. In my opinion.

[Ignorant]

The ball is not holed. One stroke penalty for causing his ball to move after address (Rule 18-2b). It must be replaced. He made a stroke at a moving ball - 2 stroke penalty (Rule 14-5), and I believe that the stroke counts as well. When the ball is replaced, he is lying 4 more than he was before the ball started to move. So he would be lying 6, hitting 7 for the tap-in. In my opinion.

That's how I figured it also. The only issue to maybe debate about is if the player is obliged to replace the ball or would it be holed with one additional penalty (Rule 18, general penalty for not replacing the ball). After all, he did make a stroke at the ball, although missed. Had the ball not fallen into the hole he surely could have continued from where the ball would have stopped and be lying 7.

Any comment on that?

[Fourputt]

That's how I figured it also. The only issue to maybe debate about is if the player is obliged to replace the ball or would it be holed with one additional penalty (Rule 18, general penalty for not replacing the ball). After all, he did make a stroke at the ball, although missed. Had the ball not fallen into the hole he surely could have continued from where the ball would have stopped and be lying 7.

That should only apply if he failed to replace the ball then made a stroke from a wrong place. Since the ball fell in the hole, no stroke can be applied, so he has not played from a wrong place, but by rule the ball is not holed either.

Rule 1-1:

1-1. General The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.

When the wind blows the ball into the hole before it has been addressed then it is

deemed to have been holed on the last stroke. Since in this case he has addressed the ball, it cannot be deemed to have been holed on his last stroke because the rule requires it to be replaced. Therefore the ball has not been holed by a stroke as Rule 1-1 requires. It seems to me that if he doesn't replace the ball and finish the hole, then he has no score for that hole and would be disqualified in stroke play or lose the hole in match play. If he does replace the ball and finishes the hole on his next stroke, then he makes a 7.

[sacm3bill]

Would the ruling be different if the ball didn't start to move until his forward swing? I.e., at that point the ball is moving while he is making a stroke at it - does that change the situation at all?

[Ignorant]

Would the ruling be different if the ball didn't start to move until his forward swing? I.e., at that point the ball is moving while he is making a stroke at it - does that change the situation at all?

Indeed it does, see Rule 14-5.

In essence, if the ball would have started to move only after the takeaway then there would be 2 strokes less in player's scorecard. For the rest of the case I cannot see any difference.

That should only apply if he failed to replace the ball then made a stroke from a wrong place. Since the ball fell in the hole, no stroke can be applied, so he has not played from a wrong place, but by rule the ball is not holed either.

Right, fair points and mostly what I had been thinking as well. Thanks, Rick!

(How the hell can one make multiple quotations????)

[sacm3bill]

Ah, I misread the OP initially - I thought the ball moved after the backswing had started, which is why I asked about whether there would be a difference if the forward stroke had started. I looked at the rule Ignorant referenced and it indeed makes no distinction between whether the ball moved after the backstroke vs the forward stroke. What I was attempting to clarify was whether there's a difference between striking a moving ball that had started moving after you've started your backswing, vs one that started moving before. It appears that in the latter case there are separate penalties assessed for both causing the ball to move *and* striking at a moving ball - while in the former case there is only the penalty for causing the ball to move. Is that an accurate summary?

(How the hell can one make multiple quotations????)

Click the <"+> symbol (to the right of "Reply With Quote") on every post you want to reply to, then click "Reply With Quote" on any of those posts.

[Ignorant]

This question came up in a competition (did not happen as described here).

What if this happened 100 yds from the hole and the player hits his ball the same way while the ball was moving (and it started to move after address and before he started his takeaway)? Let us assume that his ball would fly 90 yds onto the green. Would the player be obliged to replace his ball or would he be allowed to continue from where the ball ended with an additional penalty due to Rule 18? Would continuing without replacing the ball be a serious breach of Rule 18 (i.e. 20-7) ?

[Fourputt]

What if this happened 100 yds from the hole and the player hits his ball the same way while the ball was moving (and it started to move after address and before he started his takeaway)? Let us assume that his ball would fly 90 yds onto the green. Would the player be obliged to replace his ball or would he be allowed to continue from where the ball ended with an additional penalty due to Rule 18? Would continuing without replacing the ball be a serious breach of Rule 18 (i.e. 20-7) ?

If we are assuming that the ball only moved a few inches and he hit it while it was still moving then there certainly wouldn't be a serious breach or 20-7, as I can't believe that he gained any advantage by hitting the moving ball. Once you play from a wrong place, you continue play unless there is a serious breach involved. It is still a 2 stroke penalty for breach of 14-5, and breach of 18-2 applies too. It isn't 2 penalties with one act. It is 2 penalties with 2 acts, and since he failed to replace the ball 2 strokes for each breach. A total of 4 penalty strokes as I see it.

[Mrd19abhs]

Ok another form of this question I was playing awhile ago and I was on tee box in my downswing the wind blew ball off the tee and I couldnt stop swing in time to not hit ball sliced ball ob. What would I be hittin off tee for next shot?

[Fourputt]

Ok another form of this question I was playing awhile ago and I was on tee box in my downswing the wind blew ball off the tee and I couldnt stop swing in time to not hit ball sliced ball ob. What would I be hittin off tee for next shot?

You'd be hitting 3. No penalty for hitting a moving ball if it fell or was blown off the tee. Just the stroke and distance OB penalty.

11-3. Ball Falling off Tee If a ball, when not in play, falls off a tee or is knocked off a tee by the player in addressing it, it may be re-teed, without penalty. However, if a stroke is made at the ball in these circumstances, whether the ball is moving or not, the stroke counts, but there is no penalty.

[Mrd19abhs]

You'd be hitting 3. No penalty for hitting a moving ball if it fell or was blown off the tee. Just the stroke and distance OB penalty.

Good to know for future. I believe me and my playing partner agreed to just have me replay with no penality but now I know for future if this ever happens again. Thanks for help.

[mcfc_nick]

if you was trying to stop your swing but just couldnt in time though then i think that its not a penalty

[Fourputt]

if you was trying to stop your swing but just couldnt in time though then i think that its not a penalty

The stroke still counts unless he stops it before the clubhead passes the ball. If the clubhead passes or contacts the ball then the stroke counts and any penalty incurred counts too.

[Mrd19abhs]

Fourputt do you mind telling where you found this info. I have yet to invest in a rule book but would like to know for when i play with my buddy this week i can tell him we were wrong. Thanks in advance

[zeg]

Fourputt do you mind telling where you found this info. I have yet to invest in a rule book but would like to know for when i play with my buddy this week i can tell him we were wrong. Thanks in advance

The rules are online at

www.usga.com . But I'd advise "investing" the $3 for the pocket-sized rule book at your local golf shop.

[Fourputt]

Fourputt do you mind telling where you found this info. I have yet to invest in a rule book but would like to know for when i play with my buddy this week i can tell him we were wrong. Thanks in advance

I need to modify my previous answer... if the player changes his intent to hit the ball AND he deliberately changes the path of the clubhead so that it misses the ball, then he has not made a stroke.

Both of those criteria must be met for him to not be charged with making a stroke. I have never known a player personally with the refexes necessary to pull this one off. If his intent is still to hit the ball, or if the clubhead continues on its intended path, then it doesn't mattter if the ball moves or if he just whiffs it... he has still made a stroke.

[colin007]

I need to modify my previous answer... if the player changes his intent to hit the ball AND he deliberately changes the path of the clubhead so that it misses the ball, then he has not made a stroke.

didnt tiger do that once? he couldnt stop the club completely so he pulled up on it and it passed over/to the side of the ball?