Breed's Ball Shaping Lesson

[canadianpro]

I thought Michael Breed knew the ball flight laws....tonight for a fade he said "aim your body left, open the clubface to the right (to where you want it to finish) and the ball will start on the path of the clubhead and fade to the target.....I don't get it!

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by canadianpro

I thought Michael Breed knew the ball flight laws....tonight for a fade he said "aim your body left, open the clubface to the right (to where you want it to finish) and the ball will start on the path of the clubhead and fade to the target.....I don't get it!

Sounds like he was right about the start of the ball flight but that the ball would probably land just right of the target. Too much with the open.

[delav]

Originally Posted by canadianpro

I thought Michael Breed knew the ball flight laws....tonight for a fade he said "aim your body left, open the clubface to the right (to where you want it to finish) and the ball will start on the path of the clubhead and fade to the target.....I don't get it!

Agreed.  Assuming the ball would be struck with a clubface pointing at the target and a path across it, the ball should end up right of the target.

Perhaps Erik needs to write in, again.

[Harmonious]

When I watched the Fix, I wondered how long before the ball flight police would start their attack on Breed.  If you had listened to his entire discussion, he said that GENERALLY SPEAKING, the ball will start our somewhat along the body line and will end up, IN GENERAL, toward the target.  His presentation was on how to create spin and, as you noticed, every one of his shots spun the way he wanted.  And he also said that it takes PRACTICE to discover how much you need to adjust the club in your grip in order for you to get the amount of spin you want.

Breed knows the ball flight laws.  This part of the program wasn't about that.  It was about how to shape shots.

[granitegolf]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

When I watched the Fix, I wondered how long before the ball flight police would start their attack on Breed.  If you had listened to his entire discussion, he said that GENERALLY SPEAKING, the ball will start our somewhat along the body line and will end up, IN GENERAL, toward the target.  His presentation was on how to create spin and, as you noticed, every one of his shots spun the way he wanted.  And he also said that it takes PRACTICE to discover how much you need to adjust the club in your grip in order for you to get the amount of spin you want.

Breed knows the ball flight laws.  This part of the program wasn't about that.  It was about how to shape shots.

Agreed- I have been studying the ball flight laws a fair bit after all the discussion on this site and have become much more successful and shaping my shots. In fact I shot my second 69 on Saturday while using both cuts and draws to access hard pin locations. I thought Breed's session on how to shape a shot was very good and one that fits those that are learning to hit cuts, draws when needed. The intent of the show was not the ball flight laws but the general idea of how to create the correct type of side spin.

[Gerald]

Hmmm I didn't see it, but if you have a big tree in front of you and a target behind that tree, and you swing outside in, with the clubface open in direction of the target, the ball will most likely end up in to the tree ....... if you hit it let's say with a 10* outside in swing and a 5* closed clubface, it will start left of the tree and slice around it ...... (has little to do with ball flight laws, just common sense).

[saevel25]

Yea, but can a person tell actually how many degrees the clubface is open or close in there swing. Most people try to swing along there body lines, You do want to aim left of the tree, and have the clubface open to your swing path. So its likely most think the body dictates the swing path, which it does in some degree.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Yea, but can a person tell actually how many degrees the clubface is open or close in there swing. Most people try to swing along there body lines, You do want to aim left of the tree, and have the clubface open to your swing path. So its likely most think the body dictates the swing path, which it does in some degree.

Only by experimenting and practicing can you determine how much to rotate the grip in your hands to achieve the amount of spin you want. Breed used the Golfpride logo on the top of his grips as the indicator of how many degrees to open or close.  Many grips come with a little notch down at the end to help with this, assuming the grips were aligned correctly when installed.  Then, once the club is set in your hands at the angle you want, you align your body to the left of the tree and make your normal swing along that line.  If your swingpath goes along that line and you maintain the clubface at the preset open angle, you will see that left to right spin you want, around the tree, and at your target.

Note: For those who keep the same grip, and rely on changing their swing to make the ball spin, this discussion is moot.

[canadianpro]

Respectfully, I still say that his statement "aim the clubface at the target" is dead wrong if the intent is to shape the ball to the target....by the way what does "generally" mean?...sometimes, all the time....50%???????

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by canadianpro

Respectfully, I still say that his statement "aim the clubface at the target" is dead wrong if the intent is to shape the ball to the target....by the way what does "generally" mean?...sometimes, all the time....50%???????

And, once again, I will say that the purpose of the discussion was how to shape shots, not how to hit a specific target.  That's why Breed was so careful to use terms like "in the general direction of" and "generally" (I specifically listened to his wording because I knew someone would bring it up here).  And why he said that the correct amount of opening or closing of the clubface was found by experimenting and practicing.

Let's say Average Joe wants to learn how to shape shots, so he listened to the Golf Fix and Breed's explanation last night.  He doesn't know the new and improved ball flight laws by heart so he does what you say Breed said.  He aims the clubface at the target and aligns himself left of the target.  His first swing (assuming he swings along his alignment), the ball starts out at the target and slices farther right.  Hmm, he says, "I guess I need to rotate the clubface a little less before I take my grip".  He modifies his clubface a little bit. His next shot starts just a little left of the target but still slices to the right of it.  He continues the experimenting until he finds the right amount to open the clubface before he takes his grip. Average Joe still won't know the ball flight laws, because it was not discussed last night, but he now can shape his shots.  And that is what Breed was presenting.  Nothing more.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

When I watched the Fix, I wondered how long before the ball flight police would start their attack on Breed.  If you had listened to his entire discussion, he said that GENERALLY SPEAKING, the ball will start our somewhat along the body line and will end up, IN GENERAL, toward the target.  His presentation was on how to create spin and, as you noticed, every one of his shots spun the way he wanted.  And he also said that it takes PRACTICE to discover how much you need to adjust the club in your grip in order for you to get the amount of spin you want.

Breed knows the ball flight laws.  This part of the program wasn't about that.  It was about how to shape shots.

I haven't seen the entire show yet, but enough people I trust to be fair judges think the show was terrible.

I have seen this clip:

For a million dollars if I had to do nothing but make a ball draw or hook, I'd close the clubface and swing way to the right. The problem is we play golf to targets and Breed's advice flies in the face of what we know about how a ball flies the way it does.

So yes, if we "want to create draw spin" we can do what Michael says in the clip above, but if we want to play golf I suggest we do things differently.

And as fair as I want to be here, I can't defend Breed in that post and I don't think he could either. He says the clubface should point at the target where the ball will finish. Then he talks in a bit of a circle by saying that "because the club is toed in, it'll start a little bit to the left". The clubface is the majority, not "a little bit" of the controlling factor, as you know.

His swing at 2:10 misses the target wildly. It's a pull-draw, as you'd expect, and it not only starts just left of his target but then hooks even farther from it.

It's baffling to me that this kind of instruction continues to make its way to the ears, eyes, and minds of golfers. Flat out baffling. Harmonious, I know you're of the opinion that we should all lay off, and just everyone get along, and for the most part I'm good with that. But to ask that when people are discussing opinion is one thing... to ask that when people are sharing facts is another thing entirely.

Also, I don't know how you can truly defend what he said. Even allowing for the fact that the show is "live," it's still prepared material. This was, if I understand what people have told me, the main point of this whole show - shot shaping... Do you believe it is more difficult to say "point the face where you want the ball to start, then make it curve by changing your path relative to that starting direction"? How is that any more confusing to say or difficult to understand than "point the body where you want the ball to start, and point the face where you want the ball to end up"? The former is just as simple, IMHO, and has the benefit of being more correct .

Originally Posted by Harmonious

And, once again, I will say that the purpose of the discussion was how to shape shots, not how to hit a specific target.

Then why did he keep saying the word "target"?

I'm sorry, but I can't excuse all of the misinformation in that clip I posted because he throws in the word "generally" a few times.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Let's say Average Joe wants to learn how to shape shots, so he listened to the Golf Fix and Breed's explanation last night.  He doesn't know the new and improved ball flight laws by heart so he does what you say Breed said.  He aims the clubface at the target and aligns himself left of the target.  His first swing (assuming he swings along his alignment), the ball starts out at the target and slices farther right.  Hmm, he says, "I guess I need to rotate the clubface a little less before I take my grip".  He modifies his clubface a little bit. His next shot starts just a little left of the target but still slices to the right of it.  He continues the experimenting until he finds the right amount to open the clubface before he takes his grip. Average Joe still won't know the ball flight laws, because it was not discussed last night, but he now can shape his shots.  And that is what Breed was presenting.  Nothing more.

Thing is, here's the alternate scenario:

Breed shares the proper advice (which I've demonstrated takes just as long and is just as simple). Average Joe aims the clubface left of the target and himself farther left. His first swing (assuming he swings along his alignment) goes starts left and fades back to the target.

There's no experimentation. There's no doubt.

And what's more, there's no confusion. In your scenario, someone does exactly what Breed told them to do, and the shot doesn't work. And it never will .

Why ask that people "experiment" when you can give them the right information immediately?

---

I've tried very hard lately to go easier on people, but there's a limit to that. Perhaps people would stop picking on Breed (or anyone else) if they'd get these simple things correct. Know what I mean? Given the choice between "people stop criticizing golf pros on TV and in magazines" and "golf pros on TV and in magazines stop giving crap information that's so easily criticized," wouldn't you prefer the latter?

I would.

[saevel25]

the way he explains it is wrong, but he himself knows the results and his swing. But for the average golfer, just go out to the range and find what works for you. I honestly have a hard time hitting a draw with an open clubface. I do not do a push draw a well at all. I am a fade guy. So when i draw, i have to over do it and play a pull draw, which i know how to play it, and were the ball comes off the clubface and how the ball will curve.

[canadianpro]

Hooray Eric! I totally agree...thanks for elaborating. I watched with expectations of proper technique having seen his earlier clip on ball flight but was shocked when he angled his alignment sticks to the left and said "aim the clubface at the target". I'm not a big Breed fan but his show can be entertaining and some of his advice is good. I too cannot accept information that is wrong and misleading and I don't care who it comes from "generally".

And I am not a staff member of the ball flight police.

[rpolancot]

I don't understand what is not to understand. I've had this advice before on shaping shots and, generally, that's an easy way of doing it. There are a lot of thigns that can be added to it but it is, for me, all spot on. I try it like that and it works for me just fine, some little adjustment on distance (perhaps a clup or two) and on the starting path of the ball if you use lets say a 15* closed-open face. "Advanced" golfers will change their "swing path" rather than the stance and play more of a "feel" shot. This won't work for us high hdcps. For now i shape them well (mostly from behind trees jaja!!) with this simple instructions.

I don't see the problem.

[Harmonious]

Knowledge of the ball flight laws is far more important than being able to hit shots, I guess.  OK, that's enough from me on this subject.

[sean_miller]

It's not a "one or the other" thing. The "new ball flight laws" aren't new and following old school methods can and do get the job done.

I just think (based on this thread alone) that Breed's error is putting the steps in the wrong order (even for old school guys like us). Traditionally you'd set up square to the target (step 1), open your clubface slightly (setp 2), then move your stance / path to the left (step 3), keeping the same club face / path angle you had after step 1. At this point the club face will aim a bit left of the final target. Many old books describe hitting fade this way and it works just fine if done in this order.

The problem with setting up left first, THEN aiming the face right at the target (or even a bit to the right of it - like where it would been aiming after step 2 in first example), is that the ball starts either at the target or slightly left of it, then it curves farther right than the player wanted. Without experience, he'll surely end up compensating by aiming farther left with his body, which curves the ball even farther right, and so on and so forth.

Enter the ball flight laws. If the ball starts too far left or right or curves too much or too little, it's easy to see which variable need adjustment. Whichever step you do first, you can still hit a fade that lands at the target. Voila - win win.

Quote:

Knowledge of the ball flight laws is far more important than being able to hit shots, I guess.  OK, that's enough from me on this subject.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Knowledge of the ball flight laws is far more important than being able to hit shots, I guess.  OK, that's enough from me on this subject.

That's not an accurate comparison, Harmonious, and you know it. Or at least I have to assume you do, giving the benefit of the doubt.

"Correct information about the ball flight laws is far more important than incorrect information about the ball flight laws."

And, given correct information versus incorrect information, which one do you think will let someone "being able to hit shots" more quickly, easily, or accurately?

Enough from you? I'm glad you want to stand up for Breed here, but c'mon... how is his advice not on the wrong side of the "good/bad" line?

Did players play for years with bad information? Sure. But isn't there a chance that correct information is going to be better for golfers in general, particularly when it's just as easy to share and understand?

P.S. Contradicts this when he GOT the answers right:

Proof that "saying" the right answer is one thing, but incorporating it and even perhaps understanding it are different than just being able to give the right answer when asked?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by canadianpro

I thought Michael Breed knew the ball flight laws....tonight for a fade he said "aim your body left, open the clubface to the right (to where you want it to finish) and the ball will start on the path of the clubhead and fade to the target.....I don't get it!

Irrespective of whether he does or doesn't know the "ball flight laws", this is a good way to learn to hit a fade and, when reversed, a draw/hook.

The fact that people criticise Nicklaus, Miller, etc. etc. for "misunderstanding the ball flight laws" doesn't alter the fact that doing the "shoulders to the start, clubface to the finish" routine gets the job done. Extremely well.

I'm not talking about physics or dynamics or anything else. Following the advice he gave is a great way to fade the ball, because it makes you naturally cut across the ball.

There seems to be an obsession by some here to jump on anyone who doesn't seem to understandf the "new ballflight laws" and imply that it makes them incompetent or stupid.