Quest to regain my lag I lost.

[chrisutpg]

Well first off, Hi everyone.

My name is Chris. Unfortunately I need another set of eyes, or multiple sets in this case. I seem to have completely forgot how to swing a golf club. Now I should add that I am still playing great golf. However I am not at all happy with how I am swinging the club. So in this thread I will be doing exactly what the title says; Trying to get back to where I was a few years back.

Now I am not sure how I crept into these bad habits or even why. But at this point it just does not matter. Currently I'm only hitting a driver 235ish, and a 7i 150ish. My old numbers were around 260ish, and 165ish. I never hit the ball extremely far, but I have no doubt lost distance. I've narrowed it down to a couple things in my swing. You can take a look at the video and tell me what you think. I appreciate anything anyone has to say.

My thoughts on the swing;

1: Right off the ball to half way back, my head is dipping at least 5 inches. I am 98% sure this is why I am flipping a bit and losing my lag. However I cannot exactly figure out why I am dipping so much. My shoulders seem to turn at a 90 degree angle to my spine, NOT to the ground.

2: Coming down, I am clearly coming from the outside a bit, so again not helping that cause of flipping.

3: I know I need to turn a bit more from the top and passively let my arms fall back down, however I think until I correct the dip, this won't make much of a difference.

Please take a look at the video link at the bottom. I am considering rigging something up to put up against my head while I swing so I keep my height, since I don't have anyone to hold something there for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tp0TF01gro

[The Gill]

One of the major reasons you're loosing lag is that you're chicken winging your right arm from the top. That right elbow coming out is what is causing the casting action you have going on. The right elbow should try to lead you right hand.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by chrisutpg

3: I know I need to turn a bit more from the top and passively let my arms fall back down, however I think until I correct the dip, this won't make much of a difference.

Regarding passively letting your arms fall back down, did you ever try pulling your arms back down trough the ball as fast as possible? Also, in the DTL view you look like you're, bear with me, "humping a goat". I was just made aware that I do that a bit in my swing.

[phillyk]

Another possibility is that you're shifting your weight back and forth as you swing, instead of distributing it as you swing.  Meaning, your downswing, your body moves back, and your forward swing, your body moves back forward. This movement is slight in your video, but if you distribute that weight from more of a hip turn and keeping your head steady like you said, there will be less flipping.

[chrisutpg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gill

One of the major reasons you're loosing lag is that you're chicken winging your right arm from the top. That right elbow coming out is what is causing the casting action you have going on. The right elbow should try to lead you right hand.

Yes, agreed. However will that make much of a difference if I am still dipping so much? Because won't my rise up still cause me to flip at impact?

Quote:

Regarding passively letting your arms fall back down, did you ever try pulling your arms back down trough the ball as fast as possible? Also, in the DTL view you look like you're, bear with me, "humping a goat". I was just made aware that I do that a bit in my swing.

Yes I have done that, and actually have some video of me hitting knock-downs with a 8i half swing and I maintain a lot more lag, but not like I should be. What I mean is that my kinectic sequence is all out of whack. I am start down with my hands, it should be more like; 'Left shoulder and hips start to turn back toward the ball, right arm than tucks in, and hands are passively falling back toward the ball.'

Not sure by what 'humping a goat' means? Losing my spine angle a bit? If that is what it means, again I think that comes from the dip off the ball.

Quote:

Another possibility is that you're shifting your weight back and forth as you swing, instead of distributing it as you swing.  Meaning, your downswing, your body moves back, and your forward swing, your body moves back forward. This movement is slight in your video, but if you distribute that weight from more of a hip turn and keeping your head steady like you said, there will be less flipping.

I think I understand what you are saying. However I feel like my weight shift is pretty good, except for the fact that in dipping my head I probably cause a lot of weight to go down into my right foot, not onto the hip/thigh/leg. Just taking a guess here. Again tho, I know the first step in this process has to be to maintain my height on the back swing. However I still cannot figure out why I am dipping so much?

Any more thoughts are great. Thank you all very much for the help.

P.S I will try to post the video of me hitting the knock-down shots in a little bit.

P.P.S I should add that two years ago, when I was playing lights out. I had some video from my instructor of my swing, and we were working of lag at the time. He had something held up against my head to maintain my height in the backswing, and I retained a lot more lag into the ball. However I lost that video somewhere so I have no way to go back and compare.

[JetFan1983]

Your swing looks a helluva lot like mine did not too long ago, and that is not a good thing, my friend!

I struggled with both an excessive dipping of the head on the backswing and a severe lack of the correct axis tilt on the downswing. I'm happy to say that over the last few weeks I have done a lot towards fixing both, and my scores are dropping ( I shot my first ever sub-40 nine hole round last weekend, guys!). Sorry, off-topic.

1) You are clearly side tilting too quickly/too much on the backswing. The spine should actually be extending on the backswing. Perhaps feeling more of that will keep your head more stable? Perhaps you need to feel as if you're standing up or straightening your spine as your reach the top of the backswing? It's hard to say what feels will work for you since only you can find those.

I was able to fix this using something very simple. I would take my setup with my head against the wall and take backswings. The pressure of my head increasing against the wall helped me "feel" this problem very clearly. When you feel what it takes to get your head not dip at all, it feels very different and weird. But this drill will give you immediate feedback.

As far as you losing your lag, delav has made a bunch of stellar posts that greatly illustrates the correct angles created between the shaft and the left arm during the mid downswing and through impact (Thanks, delav!):

The thick orange line is the shaft angle at impact.

2) Your main problem on the downswing is your lack of secondary axis tilt . Again, this was/is my major downswing issue for a long time until I figured out what the problem was and begun the process of fixing it, which I'm happy to say, I am.

A good player's spine is actually tilting away from the target at impact from a face on view. Don't take my word for it. Here are some examples of the game's greatest players doing it. This axis tilt is by far the most noticeable in long drivers, but every good ballstriker has it:

Tiger

A scratch golfer

Bubba Watson in 2007

Charlie Wi with an iron

Two time long driver champion Jamie Sadlowski

Paula Creamer

Notice how the trail shoulder is considerably lower than the lead shoulder and the spine is tilting considerably away from the target in all the above photos? This is you at impact:

You can see how your spine is much more vertical at impact when compared with the previous other examples. Your shoulders are much more level as well. It is very difficult to maintain lag from this position.

For a person who has their shoulders too level at impact, the feeling of getting the right shoulder down can be beneficial. It has helped me a lot, but unfortunately, a feel tip rarely helps anyone but the individual who gave the tip, so this might not help you specifically at all, I don't know. The "right shoulder down" feel tip could easily lead to someone doing that but not getting their hips/weight forward. They'll just hit the ball fat or thin all day doing that.

So how do you create the correct axis tilt in the theoretical sense? By pushing the hips forward /along your stance line on the downswing while keeping the shoulders/upper center in place. If the hips go laterally and the upper center stays in place then the spine will naturally be tilting in the correct manner.

How this should feel is different for all of us. Some like the feeling of pressure on the lead foot into the ground to start the downswing. This gives many the leverage they need to push forward. Some (like me) need the feeling of the right shoulder dropping downward (which for some reason gets me to push my hips forward subconsciously). Remember, feel related tips rarely work for someone else, so you'll just have to use your camera and trial and error until you dial in the correct feel for you.

PS- Notice that Luke Donald also has crazy axis tilt in the delav photo I used too.

[chrisutpg]

Thank you. That was a great informative post. As for the first thing. I already have plans to rig something up to keep my head against while I swing so I can stay a bit taller. I'll have to go through some trial and error to figure out a feeling or thought that will help with this.

As for the second. I never took note of the spine angle leaning away for the target before. I always had the feeling of my right should spinning out of the way to get back toward the ball. Clearly not the best feeling, but since I was breaking par, I really cared less about what the swing looked like. I think that if I let my arms move passively and use my lower body/shoulders a bit more, this feeling may be easier to come by. Like you said, camera and trial and error will have to be a best friend.

Again, thank you. As always, any more information is completely welcome.

[NEOHMark]

Just a thought - looking at the comparison's in Jetfan's post....your hips aren't turned nearly as much as the pros' hips are at impact.  Your overall body position doesn't appear to be all that much different at impact than it does at setup.  Can't say the same for any of the pros.

In watching the view from behind on your YT, to my eyes it looks like your shoulders are starting the downswing rather than your hips.  I believe you may be a bit afraid of starting with the hips and truly shifting your weight.  You look like you're all arms (again, to my eyes anyway) almost throughout the swing.  Your finish looks ok, but it belies the fact that  most of the weight/turn has happened WAYY after impact.  You're pretty flat-footed and weight-centered until well after impact IMHO.

[chrisutpg]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

Just a thought - looking at the comparison's in Jetfan's post....your hips aren't turned nearly as much as the pros' hips are at impact.  Your overall body position doesn't appear to be all that much different at impact than it does at setup.  Can't say the same for any of the pros.

In watching the view from behind on your YT, to my eyes it looks like your shoulders are starting the downswing rather than your hips.  I believe you may be a bit afraid of starting with the hips and truly shifting your weight.  You look like you're all arms (again, to my eyes anyway) almost throughout the swing.  Your finish looks ok, but it belies the fact that  most of the weight/turn has happened WAYY after impact.  You're pretty flat-footed and weight-centered until well after impact IMHO.

Yes, I do see that. My downswing sequence is all out of whack. I start with my arms/shoulders. My lower body does not starting turning out of the way till a bit after, and idealy I know it should start before my arms/shoulders. It is something I need to work on. Again however I still think that staying the correct height will be a huge help. Thank you for the advice!

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by chrisutpg

Yes, I do see that. My downswing sequence is all out of whack. I start with my arms/shoulders. My lower body does not starting turning out of the way till a bit after, and idealy I know it should start before my arms/shoulders. It is something I need to work on. Again however I still think that staying the correct height will be a huge help. Thank you for the advice!

You're very welcome.  Obviously you're doing a lot of things right - being able to play to a 2!  I'm jealous.

[chrisutpg]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

You're very welcome.  Obviously you're doing a lot of things right - being able to play to a 2!  I'm jealous.

Hehe, its all about the short game. :)

..But going back to hitting it longer won't hurt!

[rpolancot]

Obviolsy there are multiple things we can quote on your swing. The thing is that what you need is, know that all of this hev been identified, work on the fix of them. For me most of the quoted things are a result of tree things.

1.Taking your arms too far inside on an around swing in your back swing, getting them "behind" you. Try to feel the right position of the top of the back swing as holding a tray over your shoulder with your right arm. try to maintain a "no stress" triangle between your arms and your shoulder (as the v-harness training aid suggests)

2. Fail to start your swing from the hips with proper weight transfer. This is very diffucult to achieve just by thinking of it. I would recomend the step and hit drill

3. Flipping the club. For this Sean Foleys on foot drill. If you flip the ball you'll fall. You have to hit down on it. You can even do it with your right foot on your tip behind your left foot.

Also i would get a smash bag and try this drill

it will help with covering the ball and having the right tilt on impact.

Remenber that flipping the ball is an active right hand, soft trailing and cupped right wrist is the feeling you should be looking for.

Hope this helps.

[Keep It Simple]

I will second everything JetFan said about the 2nd axis tilt in the downswing.  I really don't see a problem with your backswing (even with the dipping).  It is your head moving forward in the downswing that is killing you.  It is preventing you from creating 2nd axis tilt and causing you to flip the club so you don't miss the ball.  If you simply keep your head from moving forward in the downswing (stay behind the ball), you will notice a huge difference right away.

[chrisutpg]

Thank you for all the comments.

I know I sometimes get the club to come back a little inside, I continual work on this all the time. I know that it has to be at least PART of the reason I dip so much, and flip.

Also, as for the 2nd axis at impact. I understand the concept, and it makes sense. However can I really work on this? Or is it more of a by-product of a good swing? Just like lag correct? You cannot try to hold the wrist, lag happens at a physics level correct? Meaning that if I do things right before impact my hands will be even or slightly ahead of the club?

Clearly it varies a bit from person to person, but I think the terms I remember hearing are 'late release' aka hogan, a 'random release' aka most tour pros, and a 'sweep release' aka what I am doing? However, in all of these, the wrist is never suppose to be minipulated right?

Anyway, here is a video from today. I built a little thing to help me stay tall.

Again, thank you for all the comments. I am sure with some more work I can get back there.