V Grooves and Tour Players

[PaulMVR]

Is it only the pga tour that has to use them?

What about the nationwide tour, champions tour, lpga tour, european tour, the canadian tour, or the asian tour?

[TourSpoon]

Yes. This was a joint decision by the USGA and the R&A; and affects all professional tours for men and women.  Major amateur events will comply by 2014, and everyone else to follow suit by 2024.

[inthehole]

I've always been curious as to exactly WHY they felt the need to get rid of square grooves.      If anybody knows, I'd love to hear it.      What's wrong with getting alot of spin on the ball ?     Players are going to be tearing up the course with their wedges by making big divots, square grooves or not trying to get spin ... just wondering what was the line of thinking ?

[DiverDown]

As I understand it, square grooves are very effective at creating spin, too effective according to the powers that be.  A trend developed on the pro tours called bomb and gouge.  Players would bomb it from the tee with less regard for course management because landing in the rough was not the penalty it used to be.  The square grooved clubs could get the ball out easily while creating the backspin needed to stop it on the green.  Bomb it from the tee, gouge it out of the rough.

Taking away the square grooves the players now have to put more emphasis on where they place their tee shots, they have to think more now, and be more precise.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by inthehole

I've always been curious as to exactly WHY they felt the need to get rid of square grooves.      If anybody knows, I'd love to hear it.      What's wrong with getting alot of spin on the ball ?     Players are going to be tearing up the course with their wedges by making big divots, square grooves or not trying to get spin ... just wondering what was the line of thinking ?

I really can't see why these discussions keep popping up.  Do a search and you will find that this is all old news.

The only difference in spin between the old larger grooves (they weren't always square, and the new ones aren't always a "V") and the new ones is with full shots from medium or deeper rough - the sort of lie which can cause a flyer.  From fairway lies there is no significant difference, for pros or amateurs. Players do not take bigger divots with the new grooves - no more than they ever did.  I'm not sure where you get that from.  I didn't do anything to change my swing when I bought my Titleist AP-2 irons 2 years ago.   I get as much spin as I ever did with any irons I've played for the last 20 years.  Spin is technique and the type of ball, not grooves.

All square grooves do is peel the cover off the ball, they don't really add any more spin.  They increase forgiveness from lies in the rough, and the USGA feels that there should be some sort of penalty for missing the fairway.   I agree with that position.  The player who hits the fairway should be rewarded for hitting an accurate shot.

[PaulMVR]

They do add more spin. Having more of a penalty for missing the fairway wasn't the only reason they changed to V grooves.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by PaulMVR

They do add more spin. Having more of a penalty for missing the fairway wasn't the only reason they changed to V grooves.

Show me your research.  In extensive testing, the USGA found differently. My own experience with both types of grooves agrees with their results.  You are going to have to show me some proof that any grooves at all make a difference for a 26 handicap..

[PaulMVR]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Show me your research.  In extensive testing, the USGA found differently. My own experience with both types of grooves agrees with their results.  You are going to have to show me some proof that any grooves at all make a difference for a 26 handicap..

You got me, but... back when they were first talking about the grooves issue on golf channel,  I remember hearing one of the broadcaster guys say "the players are getting too much spin" with the square groove clubs, and also said that players who hit the fairway should be rewarded. Maybe he said that before the USGA did their extensive testing.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by PaulMVR

You got me, but... back when they were first talking about the grooves issue on golf channel,  I remember hearing one of the broadcaster guys say "the players are getting too much spin" with the square groove clubs, and also said that players who hit the fairway should be rewarded. Maybe he said that before the USGA did their extensive testing.

Keep in mind too that TV broadcasters are notorious for expressing personal opinion as fact.  They are specialists at spreading disinformation.  Just listen to any of them try to discuss a rules situation if you want to learn what NOT to do.

[Mizuno Guy]

On the PGA tour it has ultimatly come down to a putting contest. The groove change was a good try by the USGA but they have to realize that it was a fail. The pros still bomb away at the ball when they get the chance. I personally don't like the fact that the hacks and pros no longer play by the same rules.

[The Gill]

You guys are arguing the same thing. From a clean lie, the box and vee groove are nearly the same. With a little grass between the ball and club, the box grooves are much better. For the average amateur who hits short of most pins (The Elements of Scoring) box grooves do nothing.

The PGA is trying to put a higher premium on being in the fairway.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Mizuno Guy

On the PGA tour it has ultimatly come down to a putting contest. The groove change was a good try by the USGA but they have to realize that it was a fail. The pros still bomb away at the ball when they get the chance. I personally don't like the fact that the hacks and pros no longer play by the same rules.

Putting has always been what wins tournaments.  That hasn't changed, but now when players play from the rough (real rough, not that wimpy 1" crap they had in Houston ), they have a lot more trouble getting the ball close enough for those relatively easy one putts.  You see flyers and longer roll-outs making it more difficult to judge distances accurately.  The pros who bomb take the risk of facing a less predictable approach shot.  If you aren't seeing that, then you aren't watching the same tournaments that I am.

[B-Con]

You guys are arguing the same thing. From a clean lie, the box and vee groove are nearly the same. With a little grass between the ball and club, the box grooves are much better. For the average amateur who hits short of most pins (The Elements of Scoring) box grooves do nothing.

The PGA is trying to put a higher premium on being in the fairway.

This has always been my understanding as well. It's all about channeling away grass between the clubface and the ball. Also, don't forget that part of the new groove rule is that they have to have less sharp radius on the edge of the grooves. That's just to prevent the grooves from knifing into the ball. I don't know how much change that actually caused because the new minimum radius is .001", I don't know if the average radius before that was much smaller.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gill

You guys are arguing the same thing. From a clean lie, the box and vee groove are nearly the same. With a little grass between the ball and club, the box grooves are much better. For the average amateur who hits short of most pins (The Elements of Scoring) box grooves do nothing.

The PGA is trying to put a higher premium on being in the fairway.

This has always been my understanding as well. It's all about channeling away grass between the clubface and the ball.

Also, don't forget that part of the new groove rule is that they have to have less sharp radius on the edge of the grooves. That's just to prevent the grooves from knifing into the ball. I don't know how much change that actually caused because the new minimum radius is .001", I don't know if the average radius before that was much smaller.

Actually it's .010" for the minimum radius (Rules of Golf - Appendix II).  That is a significant difference from what you posted.

[B-Con]

Actually it's .010" for the minimum radius (Rules of Golf - Appendix II).  That is a significant difference from what you posted.

This is correct. I originally posted ".001" but that was a typo, I meant .010. I can't imagine a radius of .001 being worth enforcing. :-P