Vokey Wedge vs Cavity back wedge

[Fatgigi]

Hello all, I was wondering what the benefits of switching from my cavity back wedge to a Titleist spin milled Vokey Wedge. I am a beginner and i know that cavity irons provide a bit more forgiveness at the expense of feel. I have never hit a blade iron, and i was wondering whether it would be worth to invest in a blade wedge and if the difference in feel and spin would be so noticeable and different to me to justify the expense. Would i find the blade wedge playable and an improvement or would it just hinder my progress? Thank you.

[LankyLefty]

I use a Cavity back PW which I LOVE for bump and runs, Full Swings, 25-50 yard pitches and punches. I also carry 2 more classic wedges with no real cavity. These I really like around the greens and out of traps. They stop the ball much better, they make it a lot easier to shape the height of the shot and play out of much deeper nastier lies.

[Fatgigi]

Thanks for that but do you have an answer for my question?

[LankyLefty]

Ahh well the point I was trying to get across before I got carried away is...

For me as someone who hits game improvement Irons. On full swings my wedges are much harder to hit. Around the greens where your swing is shorter and more likely to be center struck they provide me with a level of control that my cavity backs do not.

On thing I will warn you against is that if you hit them fat even around the greens the ball will not stop for anything. However with practice really hitting down on the ball you'll be happy with the results.

[BostonSully]

I absolutely love my Cleveland Wedges, the most attractive club in my bag is the 50* GW with Chrome Finish. I hit it a perfect 95-105yds and its gets better roll around the green for bump+run.

I dont find it harder to hit the wedge than my cavity backed irons at all.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

... I am a beginner and i know that cavity irons provide a bit more forgiveness at the expense of feel.... Would i find the blade wedge playable and an improvement or would it just hinder my progress? Thank you.

More information on your background would be helpful. Is this your first year? What irons do you play? Have you broken 100 yet?

I swapped out my woods and irons two years ago in a move from stiff to regular shafts. My last major switchout was in 1994, and wedge variety has skyrocketed since then.

I test hit some specialty wedges, and my pro said I could do fine with them as long as I practiced a little. Last season I played with my stock PW, a CG14 GW (50.08) and an XForged SW (56.14). I did fine with them, and both the CG14 and XForged moved through the rough better than the set's stock Approach Wedge (= GW).

This year, I dropped the XForged and picked up two more CG14s: 54.12 and 58.10. I'm still working on getting them into the mix.

I would say play your first year with the stock cavity wedges from your set. Then, when you break 100, start considering specialty wedges like Vokeys. Now, you may find this season that your stock wedges work quite nicely - that's why you might want to delay thoughts of switching until next year. Also, don't automatically purchase Vokey wedges. Not all people like them. Look around at what's available.

Another thing to consider is bounce of the wedges. Club  designer Ralph Maltby's explains this. http://www.ralphmaltby.com/50

[GaijinGolfer]

A CB wedge is going to give you higher launch and more forgiviness but you will sacrafice some feel.  A wedge shaft is short enough that you should still be able to make solid contact and clubhead style shouldnt matter and in a wedge Id personally take feel over forgivness.

[Clambake]

In wedges, the cavity back versus blade-like design is largely irrelevant.    Because of the loft of the club and the inherently lower club head speed, small errors in where the ball strikes the clubface do not really manifest themselves in changing the shot shape, so perimeter weighting in a wedge really doesn't change anything that much.      I believe, and I think that many others would agree from what I've read, that the main things that should affect wedge selection are bounce, club weight and balance, groove configuration, leading edge shape, and overall club head size and shape.

The biggest impact by far is bounce.    As WUTiger pointed out, the Maltby site has a good discussion on this.    You need to match the bounce to your swing type, whether you sweep the ball off the turf, dig deep, etc.       Too much bounce for a sweeper means you'll blade a lot of shots, and too little bounce for a digger means you'll throw sod farther down the target line than the ball.     The Scratch irons website has a little tool that may be helpful to identify your swing tendency so you can better match the bounce characteristics: http://www.scratchgolf.com/custom-fitting/online-fitting-tool/

In wedges, club feel isn't so much about what happens at impact - the time the ball is on the clubhead is only on the order of 30-40 milliseconds, which means the ball is long gone before your brain registers the contact.    But since wedge shots are not ever meant to be full swing and really are meant to be finesse shots, having a good feel for the club head throughout the swing is really important.    Feel is a combination of the club head weight, shaft weight, swingweight, etc. - all those things that help you feel in balance or not.     Also, a clubhead that is too light makes it difficult to feel the clubhead, while one that is too heavy will make it difficult to gauge your swing.     Again, this is something that you really need to fit to your swing and not just what someone else plays.   Looking at the pros' wedges, you'll see they play with lead tape and drilling holes in the sole more than any other club in the bag as they seek that right combo that lets them really feel what the club head is doing.

Groove configuration is something that also needs to match up your swing type with the type of ball you like to play and the course characteristics.   If you find yourself in the rough a lot without a lot of green to work with, you'll likely want very aggressive grooves and ball with a soft cover to help bite.   If you favor more of a bump and run type of game, you may find it harder to control your distance by playing too much spin, so less aggressive grooves could actually be helpful.    In wedges, spin is good but that doesn't necessary mean that the most spin you can get is right for your game.

Leading edge shape is a matter of personal preference and also what kind of misses you tend to hit.    A straighter leading edge will probably reduce the bad effects of slightly bladed shots mishit toward the toe or heel, but the predictability of how the club head reacts cutting through the rough may suffer.    A more rounded leading edge will deal with the rough more easily, but is more susceptible to mishits.

Similarly, the overall club head size and shape are also personal.    Some players feel more confident looking down at a large club head and this helps them execute the shot, while some prefer the look of a smaller classic head.     And just like the leading edge, the head size is impacted by the rough - a smaller club head cuts through the rough better and won't get pulled off line as easily, but the margin of error is smaller too.

All of these are going to impact your wedge play far more than whether your club has a cavity back or not.     Since you state that you're a beginner, I'd suggest not worrying about it much at this time.   If you want to experiment a bit, one suggestion is to pick up a used wedge with a significantly different bounce but the same loft as what you have now, and see which feels more comfortable to you.    Most golf shops have a barrel or two of used wedges of all types; instead of focusing on a brand like Vokey, focus on just something that has very different bounce than your current club.      Play around with different lies, rough, hard pan, etc. and get a feel for what you like in bounce.    Then you can start looking at the other club characteristics that fit your game, not what some pro is playing.

Good luck and enjoy!

[Fatgigi]

Now thats an answer! Thank you very much.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

...  If you favor more of a bump and run type of game, you may find it harder to control your distance by playing too much spin, so less aggressive grooves could actually be helpful.    In wedges, spin is good but that doesn't necessary mean that the most spin you can get is right for your game. ...

As far as spin goes, different grooves help in different shots. For a pitch and run, or a fluffy chip shot, I normally use a PW because it's easier to get run with it. My GW is more likely to check up, good most of the time but not always.

As for bounce, clubfitters advise players with a high-bounce swing to have at least one lower-bounce wedge for flexibility, and visa versa.

[the19thhole]

I'd leave it. My pw is a cavity bridgestone j36 and I use purely for distance not finese. I do have vokey's though 52, 56 & 60 for my shots 100yds in that I need to stop and for those delicate shots. Do yourself a favour and get fitted for bounce for your swing (digger or sweeper). My bridgestone stops on a dime anyway. Most stock pw's are fine spend your money on the other wedges.

[B of H]

I've been using a vokey 200 series 48* pitching wedge or similar for 12 years and I wouldn't want to use a PW that matches my set.  I use the 48 for long bunker shots, bump and runs etc...and it gives me 3 options (pw, sw, lw) that all are similar around the greens and for pitch shots (ie 120 yards in).  It goes about 5 yards shorter on a full swing compared to the identical lofted pw from my iron set but I feel like it's a lot more versatile and I just bent all my irons back a degree to try to make up for the gap.

[Fatgigi]

I also see that this wedge is available in many different loft degrees and bounces. How do i know which one to pick? Say i wanted a wedge with a higher loft like at 60, how much bounce should it have? i know it depends on how you strike the ball, but how much bounce is too much, considering i dont have any out of the ordinary tendencies and needs?

[Jon Robert]

Feel?  Feel?  Not

The biggest problem you (other web surfers) will find is that the vast majority of wedges are blade type designs. But at these lofts I am not sure that forgiveness is that much of an issue. But "feel" is a wives tale and I challenge anyone to produce an Iron Byron type instrument that actually records different vbrations i.e. "feel" at the grip between the two in any sort of productive fashion. Knowing that you hit a ball on the toe more rapidly does nothing for "feel" to help pull off a better shot since the shot has already been made. So exactly how does a blade cutting through the air prior to the shot produce better "feel" than a cavity back?  It don't

The difference is huge. But...

Blades are hugely favored to teach you instantly AFTER each shot

Cavity backs are hugely favored to prevent you from being punished for a bad less than perfect strike

From the above statements one can conclude that blades are best used on the practice field (I use 1963 Hogan IPT) and cavity backs are best used on the course (I use Hogan Apex Edge)

People try to romanticize old technology by saying things like "Forged golf clubs have enhanced "feel," which means the golfer receives feedback from the golf club as to how the ball was stuck" And thus we get the same old wives tales repeated over and over.

This is rubbish, the feedback obtained is from ball flight. The cavity back irons mask mishits and the ball still flies straight. Forged which is often mistakenly used interchangeably with blades will likewise mask the mishit if the forged iron is a cavity back.

Blades will produce signature ball flights as to how the ball was struck. There is no magical sensation from forged metal particles traveling up the shaft providing feed back to the golfer.

Think about it before you also repeat the same wives tales over and over. This magical forged feedback "feel" and the inferior cast cavity back feedback both pass through an identical layer of epoxy, an identical shaft, an identical layer of grip tape, an identical rubber grip. Still think the forged still provides magical feedback “feel” to the hands? NOT! Look at the ball flight instead.

Tom Wishon is a golf club designer and researcher ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wishon ) and said in his book The Search for the Perfect Golf Club ( http://www.amazon.com/Search-Perfect-Golf-Club-Wishon/dp/1587261855 ) pg. 58 "if you are, however, a mere mortal and you don't hit on center 99% of the time, then get smart and get a cavity back"

Again: blades are best used on the practice field and cavity backs are best used on the course. Using blades to practice with and get better makes use of the cavity backs effortless.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by Jon Robert

But "feel" is a wives tale and I challenge anyone to produce an Iron Byron type instrument that actually records different vbrations i.e. "feel" at the grip between the two in any sort of productive fashion. Knowing that you hit a ball on the toe more rapidly does nothing for "feel" to help pull off a better shot since the shot has already been made. So exactly how does a blade cutting through the air prior to the shot produce better "feel" than a cavity back?

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by Fatgigi

I also see that this wedge is available in many different loft degrees and bounces. How do i know which one to pick? Say i wanted a wedge with a higher loft like at 60, how much bounce should it have? i know it depends on how you strike the ball, but how much bounce is too much, considering i dont have any out of the ordinary tendencies and needs?

Get fitted. There is no other answer. Maybe you need a lot of bounce, maybe you dont. Getting fit for wedges was one of the best things i've done for my short game. I got rid of the the cavity back gap and pitching wedges, and went with custom through the line.