Putters/putting/putter loft/C-Groove putter experiences... ?

[sevenfourate]

Ive done a search on here and only found one post on the subject of C-Groove putters......


Ive always been led to believe that over here in the UK - on traditionally slower (than US,portugal,Asia etc etc) greens,and because of the longer grass on the greens to protect them from inclement weather,the golf ball when at rest on the green can have as much as 6 - 8 % of it resting below the level of the grass.This is compared to something like 3 - 4 % on much faster,shorter and more dense greens in typically warmer climates.

This leads on to me being pretty sure that in the UK most golfers would benefit from a putter with more loft - perhaps 4 - 5 degrees - to get the ball coming out of the effective "depression" it is in at rest and getting it rolling with top-spin as soon as possible - this is especially why the newer breed of putters such as Craze-E,2-ball,Voodoo etc with very low centres of gravity are so helpful over here in my opinion.In the last two years i feel i have certainly benefitted from putters with more loft.I picked my current two-ball from a rack of perhaps 10 putters the same and chose the one with the most visible loft to the eye.If you doubt me next time you see a row in a shop have a look for yourself - they all differ slightly i assure you.I have measured quite a few supposedly "identicle" putters on a loft and lie machine and they where far from the "same".

Scotty Camerons (in the UK) come with 2.5 degrees of loft and as much as i am a huge fan of Scooty workmanship and quality,with all due respect they are completely useless here in the UK 70% of the time as it is very difficult to actually getting the ball tracking along the ground,and surely the first prerequisite of any putt - especially if it has any break on it,is that is actually on the ground.From experience,in winter its nigh on imposssible with a Scotty.

This leads me on to C-Groove putters.They also come with 2.5 degrees of loft and i well realise this can easily be changed,but im thinking that if the grooves really do promote less skidding and a better roll with true top-spin almost straight of the face then this is effectively increasing the effective loft so it will perform like a putter with more loft in regard of getting the ball out of its "depression".


So : Anyone have any experience of using any C-Groove putters on slow greens ?

(sorry for the long-winded post,was just trying to justify the reasonings for the question).

Regards Syer.

[iacas]

Josh and I will be reviewing some putters from Yes! in the near future, and they're c-groove putters as you know.

The loft on a putter really doesn't vary much: from about 2.5° to about 6° at the most. You can more effectively change the loft on your putter by putting the ball forward in your stance, and in fact, that's what I do when I play punched and sanded greens (aerated greens) as well as greens in the spring when the grass is a bit longer.

Most people pay more attention to the weight of the putter as it relates to green speed, not the loft. Loft, as I've said, is pretty easily changed.

[sevenfourate]

I await the reviews with anticipation (how long do you anticipate for the test ?)

I too play the ball fairly well forward already,and have always addressed the ball with the putter approx 1" behind it at address to further promote an upward blow and i also find it makes alignment easier for me - it stops the putter and ball "merging" into one,and almost provides two seperate parts - much like the theory of a 2 ball putter.



QUOTE (iacas) : "Most people pay more attention to the weight of the putter as it relates to green speed, not the loft."

But extra weight with the wrong loft (certainly too little) is masking the real problem of the ball skidding and not rolling truly.Hence why perhaps they feel they keep coming up short and need a heavier putter.Most people are wrong in their assumption in my opinion if this is the case.

QUOTE (iacas) : "The loft on a putter really doesn't vary much: from about 2.5° to about 6° at the most"

While i realise that the difference is small in relative terms,and i wholly agree with you,thats still something like a 120% increase from 2.5 to 6% ! By the way,have you ever seen some of the specs of the players putters on Scotty's site.Davis Love is/was like 4.245 degree's or something silly.The specs on some of the top players putters is so finite its unbelievable and far more specialised than their irons/woods specs.

Regards Syer.

[iacas]

I await the reviews with anticipation

Well, we don't have the putters yet, so... it's tough to say. Kiran (TaylorMadeFan) loved his Yes! putter, I know that. But he's no longer around to provide input.

But extra weight with the wrong loft (certainly too little) is masking the real problem of the ball skidding and not rolling truly.Hence why perhaps they feel they keep coming up short and need a heavier putter.Most people are wrong in their assumption in my opinion if this is the case.

If you're comfortable that most people includes touring pros, well, by all means...

While i realise that the difference is small in relative terms,and i wholly agree with you,thats still something like a 120% increase from 2.5 to 6%!

Ah, how to lie with statistics. Percentages like that are irrelevant - the difference between 0.5 and 1.5 degrees is 300%, but really, it's just a degree. 1/360 is a far better "percentage." 6 degrees is barely more than 2.5. Almost all putters are about 4 degrees.

[sevenfourate]

On the loft point Erik,sure - i agree.1/360th is a better description.I wasnt trying to "bend" your figures or make anyone look silly,its just in a world where Tour Pro's set their putter specs to the 3rd decimal point or whatever then a "few degrees" is more than critical.

By no way am i knocking any Tour Pro out there either.The critical word in my statement being "assumption",and im damned sure ANY Tour Pro in the world doest rely on luck and assumption in order to glean the best putter specs for them

If those same tour guys came to the UK in mid-winter and played on greens like 5 and below on the stimp-meter and their ball wasnt rolling in any way shape or form ("that was a good flight" is a common term over here mid-winter !!!!! )im sure they wouldnt JUST add weight.....

[iacas]

Most Tour pros approach putting as art, not science. That's why they'll put a new putter in the bag the morning before they go out to play their first round. Or even between rounds. I doubt that if you ask Davis Love III what the loft on his putter is, he knows, and I really doubt he would be able to tell much of a difference between 4.223 degrees and 4.718 degrees. "Those guys are good," but a half a degree here and there probably won't mean squat for putter loft.

[sevenfourate]

An interesting exert about loft by Scotty Cameron on his site:

1./ "Loft is an integral performance factor in putters and we have determined, through high-speed video, that loft is affected by shaft angle.

The golf ball, weighing 45 grams, sits in a shallow depression on the putting surface. In order to clear the edge of this depression, the putter must have loft to lift the ball out and on a straight path. We have experimented with various lofts to determine optimal performance.

With not enough loft the ball doesn’t clear the edge of the depression, causing a loss of speed and direction. With too much loft the ball launches and has a greater chance of being misdirected. When we work with a player in the Studio, we are able to determine their forward press - the shaft angle at impact - and what is needed to maintain proper loft at impact.

Each of our putters is designed with these findings in mind. Working with the best players in the world, we have determined the optimal loft of a putter and how it affects ball performance. These findings are designed into all of our products and can be found on Sunday in the Winner's Circle or in your local golf shop."

All putters coming out of USA have 4 degree's.Im pretty sure some over here have 2.5 degrees which seems a tad strange considering the above statement bearing in mind the slower greens over here and hence bigger depression.Oh well.






And another which shows the science Scotty uses for putter making/tweaking/fitting:

2./ "When a player comes in, we want them to be themselves. The atmosphere is quiet and relaxed. The first thing we do is find out what he or she wants. We keep it simple, working with facts, not theories.
One area of the studio is dedicated to fitting with high-speed cameras, lasers, and a computer system that analyzes the stroke. There is also a long, fast green, so we can see putts from different lengths. The cameras capture every angle of the stroke and the computer allows us to determine what is taking place. It is critical that we understand the performance of the putter at the point of impact.

Next, we find out what the player needs. What he or she wants, and needs, may be completely different, but with technology, we're able to show them exactly what will allow them to perform optimally."


Interesting if nothing else.Im fascinated by the physics of putting and the ways of translating this into improvements on-course......

[iacas]

Incidentally, got the "Sophie" mallet today, and the first impression isn't terribly favorable. It makes a very "tink"y sound when you putt and feels a little more cheaply made than I'm used to.

BUT that's a first impression, and they're not particularly valid in the golf world. A full review will come in a month's time or so. And Josh has a non-mallet putter from Yes, too.

[sevenfourate]

Interesting - i was thinking about the Victoria if i got any as im pretty keen on mallets.The only thing im not sure of is the sort of "reverse Callaway chevron" in the rear for alignment. It looks to me as if it wants to be the other way round ! Perhaps im just weird......


After much decision i think im going to bid on ebay on either a new Scotty Phantom Mallet,or a Studio Style Newport 1.5.Neither is available here in the UK at the moment and ive asked two sellers in the States on ebay if they will ship to the UK and both will

I cant see it as im writing this,but did i see you've got a Phantom mallet ?

[sevenfourate]

Answered my own question - ive just seen youve got the new Futura......

[iacas]

And so far, I like it a lot. A lot. But I liked my Red X , too. I like this one more...

[dipgolf]

I've putted around with the Yes! Tracy model and I like it alot. Great sound and feel. I use a Futura and I wouldn't trade it for anything, other than the new Futura Phantom.

[sevenfourate]

Walked into my local club today to find C-Groove's on offer.Got a Marylyn at a great price and they chucked a new Yes grip in cause the original was not on straight.

So i get home to re-grip it and when taking the grip off the the shaft (club was bought as 34" and was all in original shrink-wrap inc the grip) i find that the shaft has had a 1" extension in the top to make it 34" !!!!!!!!!! ie: Yes had a 33" and had extended it and then sold as a 34".

Beware of cheap/expensive immatations (delete as appropriate)

[iacas]

I don't understand why a 1" extender in a putter is a big problem...?

[iacas]

By the way... here's that review .

[sevenfourate]

It isnt a big problem at all.Its just amazing and slightly "shoddy" that it should come from the factory that way.

The Marylyn is a face-balanced,smaller headed mallet and is excellent from first impressions.Sound is good,feel is excellent (WAY better than new Scotty Cameron Studio Style) and very easy to control distance too.

First 34" ive ever had,and it seems to suit me just fine,and gets my arms in a relaxed-hanging position at address just nicely.

I will read the review tonight Erik thankyou ,im running a bit late for work...