Plugged in the Lip of Bunker

[vagolfjunkie]

Happened to me the other day.  Drove into a bunker and my next shot drives about 3 inches into the sod above the lip of the bunker.  Here's my 3rd grade rendition of the situation to help visualize below.  Question is unplayable and drop in bunker or relief from plugged lie?

[zeg]

It depends on the nature of the wall.  If it's just the dirt around the bunker, then it's part of the bunker and your only relief would be to take the unplayable and drop accordingly.  If it's a "stacked turf face," then it would not be part of the bunker so you'd have to take an option for a ball lying through the green.  I'm not familiar with what a "stacked turf face" would be, however.

There's some discussion on another site that a quick Google dug up: http://forums.iseekgolf.com/forums/14-rules-of-golf/topics/28244-plugged-ball-lip-of-buker-oz-masters

[mdl]

If you take an unplayable lie, do you have to drop in the bunker?  Do you not get 2 club lengths no closer to hole, in which case unless the line to the hole and the lip of the bunker are orthogonal, you can drop outside the bunker?

[zeg]

No, if your ball is inside the bunker then your drop must satisfy the unplayable drop requirements *and* be inside the bunker (it's written a bit oddly, but this requirement follows the drop options in the rule).  Most likely (i.e., barring the "stacked turf" case), he's got to take a stroke and drop within the bunker.  If it's "stacked turf" then he must drop outside the bunker.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by vagolfjunkie

Happened to me the other day.  Drove into a bunker and my next shot drives about 3 inches into the sod above the lip of the bunker.  Here's my 3rd grade rendition of the situation to help visualize below.  Question is unplayable and drop in bunker or relief from plugged lie?

I don't quite get that 'into the sod above the lip of the bunker'. This is not what you are drawing here. Lip is the part defining a bunker, so if a ball is above the lip it certainly is not in a bunker. So is the ball ABOVE the lip or BELOW?

In latter case it seems that your ball never left the bunker, see Definitions:

A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker.
The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not
upwards.
A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

So you need to invoke R28 and drop your ball in the bunker in all cases (28a,b,c).

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

If it's "stacked turf" then he must drop outside the bunker.

There is no requirement in that direction. When invoking R28 one may always drop one's ball anywhere on the course, no limitations ecept those mentioned under that particular Rule. It is not a common practise to drop in a bunker or in a hazard if the ball has been in an unplayable lie through the green but sometimes that may be the only available (reasonable) option.

[ghalfaire]

I think 28a allows you to drop the ball at its' original position which can be outside the bunker.  Only 28 b,c require you to drop in the bunker.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

So you need to invoke R28 and drop your ball in the bunker in all cases (28a,b,c).

[vagolfjunkie]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

I don't quite get that 'into the sod above the lip of the bunker'. This is not what you are drawing here. Lip is the part defining a bunker, so if a ball is above the lip it certainly is not in a bunker. So is the ball ABOVE the lip or BELOW?

In latter case it seems that your ball never left the bunker, see Definitions:

A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker.

The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not

upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

So you need to invoke R28 and drop your ball in the bunker in all cases (28a,b,c).

I guess this is what I am confused about where the bunker ends and through the green begins.  The sod/grass above the bunker has it's dirt/roots exposed above where the sand ends. So if I am standing in the bunker I can see the grass/rough on top, then about an inch or two of dirt/roots, then the sand directly below it.  My ball drove directly into the roots/dirt which was not touching the sand but it looks like from the definition this would be considered "lip of bunker not covered with grass"?  Correct?  Now to put a twist on it, had the grass been neatly folded down to the lip of the bunker such that the dirt/roots were not exposed and there was a definite sand/grass border then if the ball had embedded in the grass I could have got relief from embedded ball.  Appreciate the discusstion guys.  Was playing by myself and was perplexed about what to do.  I dropped in the bunker with penalty stroke and played on which looks like it was correct thing to do.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

There is no requirement in that direction. When invoking R28 one may always drop one's ball anywhere on the course, no limitations ecept those mentioned under that particular Rule. It is not a common practise to drop in a bunker or in a hazard if the ball has been in an unplayable lie through the green but sometimes that may be the only available (reasonable) option.

I think you're correct, it's the requirement to re-drop (under rule 20-2) that I was thinking of.  I'm not sure how to reconcile this, but it seems that if you do drop outside the hazard (i.e., bunker) and it rolls in, then you must re-drop (and likewise if you drop in the hazard and it rolls out).

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I think 28a allows you to drop the ball at its' original position which can be outside the bunker.  Only 28 b,c require you to drop in the bunker.

Correct, under 28a you'd only be in the bunker if you were in the bunker on your previous shot. Of course, that's probably the case if you embedded it in the lip.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I think 28a allows you to drop the ball at its' original position which can be outside the bunker.  Only 28 b,c require you to drop in the bunker.

True in general, but in this case previous stroke was made from within the bunker. Thus, no way out, drop has to be within the bunker.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by zeg

No, if your ball is inside the bunker then your drop must satisfy the unplayable drop requirements *and* be inside the bunker (it's written a bit oddly, but this requirement follows the drop options in the rule).  Most likely (i.e., barring the "stacked turf" case), he's got to take a stroke and drop within the bunker.  If it's "stacked turf" then he must drop outside the bunker.

Thanks for the ruling.  Bummer!

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by vagolfjunkie

I guess this is what I am confused about where the bunker ends and through the green begins.  The sod/grass above the bunker has it's dirt/roots exposed above where the sand ends. So if I am standing in the bunker I can see the grass/rough on top, then about an inch or two of dirt/roots, then the sand directly below it.  My ball drove directly into the roots/dirt which was not touching the sand but it looks like from the definition this would be considered "lip of bunker not covered with grass"?  Correct?  Now to put a twist on it, had the grass been neatly folded down to the lip of the bunker such that the dirt/roots were not exposed and there was a definite sand/grass border then if the ball had embedded in the grass I could have got relief from embedded ball.  Appreciate the discusstion guys.  Was playing by myself and was perplexed about what to do.  I dropped in the bunker with penalty stroke and played on which looks like it was correct thing to do.

I can understand your confusion. However, if you hit your ball from the bunker and that ball never is airborne enough to reach the altitude to be above the lip of that bunker, then you are still in the bunker. That should give you some guideline.

[vagolfjunkie]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

I can understand your confusion. However, if you hit your ball from the bunker and that ball never is airborne enough to reach the altitude to be above the lip of that bunker, then you are still in the bunker. That should give you some guideline.

Gotcha.  I agree.  Never really thought about technically where the boundaries of the bunker were until this happened the other day.  In my mind I was trying to rationalize the plugged lie but knew in my heart it was probably still in the bunker if it never reached the grass level above.  Now looking at the John Senden incident I think that was definitely plugged in the bunker.  The ball was stuck in lip of bunker "not covered by grass".

[SouthernILGolfer]

I hate when i end up in a bunker, probably the weakest part of my game.  I chipped a 2nd shot on a par 3 last weekend(was a bad day)  into the bunker and although it wasnt plugged or completely against the lip, i didnt think i would get it out.   I only had my pw with as I didnt anticipate needing my 56 and i didnt want to walk over and get it so i hit the shot with the pw and to my surprise i actually was able to get it out and onto the green, still made a 5 though but was still better than expected after such a horrible chip.

[vagolfjunkie]

Originally Posted by zeg

It depends on the nature of the wall.  If it's just the dirt around the bunker, then it's part of the bunker and your only relief would be to take the unplayable and drop accordingly.  If it's a "stacked turf face," then it would not be part of the bunker so you'd have to take an option for a ball lying through the green.  I'm not familiar with what a "stacked turf face" would be, however.

There's some discussion on another site that a quick Google dug up: http://forums.iseekgolf.com/forums/14-rules-of-golf/topics/28244-plugged-ball-lip-of-buker-oz-masters

Just curious now.  Where did Senden get to drop?  From the picture it looks like he would have to drop in the bunker so as not to be nearer the hole.  Does he get to find the NPR TtG (which would probably be toward the left side of that bunker) or doesn't the rule say you have to drop at the spot where the ball is plugged.  Another question while I am here--can you repair the plug mark before dropping if indeed you have to drop it at the same spot it is plugged?

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by vagolfjunkie

Just curious now.  Where did Senden get to drop?  From the picture it looks like he would have to drop in the bunker so as not to be nearer the hole.  Does he get to find the NPR TtG (which would probably be toward the left side of that bunker) or doesn't the rule say you have to drop at the spot where the ball is plugged.  Another question while I am here--can you repair the plug mark before dropping if indeed you have to drop it at the same spot it is plugged?

Not sure if I follow you. R28 gives you 3 options and none of them requires you to drop your ball at the same spot where it is unplayable.

Also I could not get the full picture of Senden case so I cannot give a ruling but if that ball was in the bunker then R28 b and c would require him to drop a ball in the bunker.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by vagolfjunkie

Another question while I am here--can you repair the plug mark before dropping if indeed you have to drop it at the same spot it is plugged?

If you are required to drop your ball according to R20-2b, i.e. 'as near as possible to a specific spot' then you are not allowed to repair any damage on the ground (except of course on the green you may repair old hole plugs and ball-marks) prior dropping (R13-2). If you are dropping because your ball was plugged and it ends up in the same place you are entitled to re-drop.

[Dragonsrock]

Question...if the ball is embedded in the lip such that it is outside the bunker (ie a bunker extends vertically downward so if the whole ball is outside of the bunker), would you then be able to drop outside the bunker.  I have never doen this but have seen it, my playing partner hit his shot thin and it embedded in the soil immediately below the turf that formed the lip of the bunker, standing above the ball it was clear that it was NOT in the bunker (assuming that the bunker limits were vertically downward from the defined edge), so we allowed him relief no closer to the hole, is this right or wrong?

Thanks,

Dave