Don't believe Rules knowledge can help?

[Fisherdude]

Here's one of my favorite questions:

So you hit a great drive, right under a big bush. Unplayable.

Since you hit it 293, you definitely don't want to go back to the tee. And, dropping behind the ball on a line back from the hole won't work, since that puts you deep into the trees.

That leaves the only other option. Now, obviously, when you drop, you want to get the best possible bounce and roll so you can get well away from the bush.

Question:

If you get the best possible bounce and roll before the ball comes to rest, how far away from the ball's original position, in club lengths, can you end up without having to re-drop?

[chingali]

That leaves the only other option. Now, obviously, when you drop, you want to get the best possible bounce and roll so you can get well away from the bush.

Simple answer is 2 clublengths no nearer the hole although there are others possible given different situations.

From the wording of your post, I hope that you aren't advocating influencing the ball's position as part of the dropping procedure?

[Fisherdude]

Bzzzzt! Try again!

The correct answer is not two clublengths, and no, of course I'm not advocating influencing the ball's position! I'm a rules geek!

I posted the question at 10 am yesterday, and I'm going out to play this morning. I can't believe I'm doing this, it's 21 freakin' degrees!

If nobody has the answer when I get back from the course, I'll post the first clue.

Clay

[chingali]

Now I see what you are getting at, I was paying attention to how far the ball can roll before you have to redrop.

Let me have another go, in the situation you have outlined you are going to take two clublengths relief no nearer the hole, and the ball can then roll another two clublengths so you can end up a maximum of 4 clublengths away from your bush.

What's it like playing in weather as cold as you are playing in today, it never gets that cold where I am! Mind you though I did play in some VERY nasty weather yesterday. I was even par after 11 holes in soft drizzling rain, every now and then we had a heavier shower but nothing worth worrying about. Then the rain started properly...

I've never played in anything as heavy. I did pretty well to play the next 7 holes in 9 over. An umbrella was pretty much useless, the first time I stepped out from underneath my umbrella I was completely soaked, not a bit wet, soaked. So wet that if you squeezed your shirt water would pour out of it. Even worse is that I wear glasses and no sooner had you managed to wipe the water off them and put them back on they'd fog up. I played the last 5 holes without my glasses because the wiping dry thing was just pointless. When you were putting there was so much rain that it ran off the brim of my hat like a waterfall and fell on to my putter as it sat behind the ball, more than a bit of a distraction!

[Fisherdude]

Correct!

Most players think the "two club lengths" stated in several rules means that the ball must stay inside that arc, when that short little sentence in 20-2c(vi) is the eye-opener. Applies to dropping one club length from nearest point of relief from a cartpath, too. Total...three.

As far as playing in cold weather, it's not my favorite thing to do. Staying home is even less appealing. The cold itself isn't really the problem. What's bad is if it's windy. It was 27F (what is that, maybe -3C?), but the sun was shining and it was pretty calm. Then, it's all about layers. Just a pair of lined rain pants over jeans, and a long-sleeved undershirt under a long-sleeved rugby shirt and a windbreaker, and you're good to go. Winter gloves on both hands. Knit ski hat. Walk, don't ride. Don't need any more wind, plus it'll keep you warmer. Couldn't get a tee into the ground without bruising your thumb until about the 8th hole. Definitely can't carry an approach shot onto the green because the first bounce would be about 30 yards. Frozen greens are really, really hard. Have to play a running shot. By the end of the front nine the greens are thawed, the ground is getting soft, and the sun's feeling pretty nice! Then, of course, there's the beer calling! You just keep telling yourself pretty soon it'll be 90F and 70% humidity and you'll just be complaining about that!

Rain isn't too bad, either, as long as it's not so bad I can't hold onto the club or see through my glasses. One of my favorite Tiger stories is that when he was a kid living in Southern California, where it doesn't rain much at all during the summer, when it rained in the winter he would run to the course so he could get used to playing in the rain.

"Nae wind, nae golf!"

Thanks for taking the time to weigh in on the little tester. 66 views, one reply.

[golfchief]

Just less than 4 club lengths To get the most from your drop. It may end up up costing you if you pick the wrong spot to drop. If the ball rolls more than two club lengths after the second drop you must place the ball where it hit the course which may be a poor spot to hit your next shot from. A spot a foot from where you dropped may give a perfect lie but no maximum roll it's just which lie are you willing to take a chance on.

[Fisherdude]

Absolutely correct. If you drop twice, and both times it rolls more than two clublengths, then you must place on the spot where the ball FIRST struck the course.

Here's a related situation that happens quite frequently on my home course. There's on OB fence, and next to it are mounds. The mounds kick the ball against the fence, and, of course, you get no relief from anything that indicates OB. So, you're up against the fence, and you have no alternative but to declare your ball unplayable. So, you take the drop, and the ball rolls back down the mound and right back up against the OB fence. Which is less than 2 clublengths from where the ball first struck the course, so there's no redrop. And, now you're back up against the fence.

So, now what?

[golfchief]

If your ball rolls back to the fence you can place the ball where it hit the ground first with your second drop.

[Fourputt]

Correct!

I just got here... too late to chime in.

While theoretically possible, it is unlikely that you would ever get a full 4 clublengths, as the dropped ball has to hit the ground within the 2 clublengths you measure from where your ball was unplayable, thus losing an inch or so right at the start). The ground has to be favorable too, as the ball has to roll exactly 2 clublengths after dropping. Even 1/2 inch farther and you would have to redrop, or if that was the 2nd drop you would place it where it first hit the ground.

[Fisherdude]

If your ball rolls back to the fence you can place the ball where it hit the ground first with your second drop.

Sorry, that is not correct.

Would you like a hint? This is essentially the same question as the "four clublength" question above. Refer to the same rule for reference.

[Fisherdude]

I just got here... too late to chime in.

You're basically correct, which is why I was talking about the best possible bounce and roll to get you the luckiest possible final position.

Call it 3.99 clublengths! The point is, of course, that probably 90% of all golfers think that if the ball comes to rest more than 2 clublengths from its original unplayable position you must redrop, when the Rules actually give you almost double that distance.

[golfchief]

Sorry, that is not correct.

rule 20-2cv if the ball comes to rest where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken you must re-drop. no additional penalty.

[Fisherdude]

rule 20-2cv if the ball comes to rest where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken you must re-drop. no additional penalty.

Sorry, that is not correct.

The entire text from 20-2c(v) is: "...from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (Immovable Obstruction), Rule 25-1 (Abnormal Ground Conditions), Rule 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green), or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitchmark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball)." Which makes perfect sense. If you're taking relief from a cart path, which is an immovable obstruction, and the ball rolls back onto the cart path, you certainly do get to redrop. Hint #2: Our example is a Ball Unplayable (Rule 28), and the applicable Rule is 20-2c(vi).

[golfchief]

Sounds like your confusing the word relief. free relief vs. relief with penalty.
Once you declare your ball unplayable you must take a drop that frees you to hit the ball without interfearence from the object that makes your ball unplayable. If the ball rolls back into the area not giving you complete relief from the object you must redrop or place the ball. this does not mean you get a great lie or a clear shot to the green only the relief from the object. After taking the drop and penalty from the original relief position and you still don't like the looks of it you can take another unplayable penalty and drop the ball again.

[Fourputt]

rule 20-2cv if the ball comes to rest where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken you must re-drop. no additional penalty.

In the scenario here you are taking a penalty relief which does not assure you of complete relief from the situation. I've known players to take 2 or more penalty drops in order to escape a brushy or wooded area where they had no other option. Once dropped correctly under the rules (not more than 2 clublengths from the unplayable spot, and coming to rest not more than 2 clublengths from where it hit ground when dropped), the ball is in play regardless of the condition of the new lie. I can roll back to the same spot as you picked it up from... it's still in play.

[Fisherdude]

...

Golfchief, both of your statements are not correct.

That's why I find the Rules so interesting. There are many, many Rules that hardly ever come into use. There are many other Rules that we all need to use on a regular basis. Especially if we're not particularly straight off the tee! Many of us learned the rules (no capitalization on purpose!) as we learned to play, from talking to other players, etc. Players frequently are quite certain that they understand a Rule, when they have been playing for many years under significant misperceptions. How to proceed after you hit your ball into a pond, or out of bounds, or lose your ball are all very common events. So is deciding that your ball is unplayable. Let's talk about your first statement that I quoted. You're confusing the difference between taking "relief" WITHOUT penalty, such as from a cart path, with the "relief" you get WITH a penalty, such as from a water hazard or an unplayable lie. The Rules are completely different. In a cart path situation, yes, you MUST take complete relief, and if the ball rolls back into a position where interference still exists, then you MUST redrop. That has nothing to do with an unplayable lie. This is a completely different situation. If you hit your ball under a large bush, a bush that is more than 2 clublengths in diameter, and you decide to drop within two clublengths, you will be dropping under the bush. Probably not a good choice. If you decide to go back on a line from the hole through the ball's original position, this might put you OB, or into a lake, or it might put you deeper into the bushes. You might find that your only workable choice will be to proceed under stroke and distance and go back to the place from where you played your previous stroke. Rule 28 is one of the shortest, simplest Rules in golf, and it's crystal clear. You have three choices. You absolutely, positively DO NOT get any kind of a "guarantee" of relief from an unplayable lie through any other option besides stroke and distance. If dropping within two clublengths will not give you any kind of stroke, or dropping back on a line won't give you any kind of stroke, then your ONLY option is stroke and distance. As far as your second statement, Rule 20-2c(v) is also clear. You DO NOT get to redrop your ball if you dropped it while proceeding under Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable) and it rolls into either: 1. A NEW unplayable lie, or 2. The ORIGINAL unplayable lie. You ONLY get to redrop if one of the 7 conditions listed in 20-2c(vi) happens. If you drop and the ball first strikes the course WITHIN two clublengths of the original unplayable position, and it rolls back into its original unplayable position, then it has clearly rolled LESS than two clublengths from where it first struck the course when you dropped it. Since the ball has NOT: Rolled into or out of a hazard. Rolled out of bounds. Rolled onto a putting green. Rolled closer to the hole than its original position. Rolled back into a position from which you were taking FREE RELIEF under any of the Rules stated in 20-2c(v). Rolled MORE THAN two clublengths from where it first struck the course, Then, that ball is IN PLAY, and, if we do our best to use the correct terminology as stated in the Rules Of Golf: "Thou Art Screwed." Play it, or declare it unplayable again, under an ADDITIONAL penalty of one stroke. What does this mean in real life? If your ball ended up in an unplayable lie because a steep slope kicked it there, and you're going to drop on that same steep slope, well... I'd probably choose another one of the other two options. Just to be safe! I apologize because I know this sounds like I'm tootin' my own horn here, but after several years of formal Rules training, I'm 100% certain that this is the correct answer. You probably won't be a bit surprised if I tell you that I'd love to keep talking about the Rules! So, if you or anybody else has a question, fire away! Clay

[golfchief]

Sorry I disagree, rule 20C is conditions for a redrop, 20C v states if the ball comes to rest by the conditions from which relief was taken it must be redropped. If the ball rolls back into that condition and it's with in the two clubs you still must redrop because you did not get your relief from the condition you took the penalty for. If you play the ball after it rolls back into the condition you also get another two shot penalty for playing from a wrong place rule 20-7ii

[NM Golf]

Sorry I disagree, rule 20C is conditions for a redrop, 20C v states if the ball comes to rest by the conditions from which relief was taken it must be redropped. If the ball rolls back into that condition and it's with in the two clubs you still must redrop because you did not get your relief from the condition you took the penalty for. If you play the ball after it rolls back into the condition you also get another two shot penalty for playing from a wrong place rule 20-7ii

Well unfortulately no matter how much you disagree you are wrong. It is very clear in the rulebook. You can cannot redrop without penalty using the unplayable ball rule in that circumstance. You only get to redrop if rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard; rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard; rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green; rolls and comes to rest out of bounds. The rule you are incorrectly stating, rule 20-2 C reads:

A dropped ball must be re-dropped without penalty if it: rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);

The rule never says anything about taking relief from the conditions you took a

penalty for. It states very clearly which rules get to redrop under this rule. Notice there is no rule 28 stated above. That is because the rules give no guarantee for relief under the rule 28 ball unplayable. Sorry. P.S. just to make sure I was correct I just posed this question to several of the pros I work with. They agreed no guarantee of relief when dropping from an unplayable lie. Now to keep the discussion going: So the player deems his ball unplayable and drops 2 clublengths from the original spot of the ball. The ball rolls back into the original position so the player deems it unplayable again. Here's the question; does he still have the option of going back to the spot of the original stroke was played (option (a) below)? (ie. the tee box or where ever he hit from before the first unplayable ball penalty)? Or does he now only have option (b) or (c)

(a) Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or (b) Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the holeand the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or (c) Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.