My Swing (Hogan Project)

[uttexas]

I continue to enjoy your thread, and parts of "your" swing are improving--notably squeezing the elbows together and increasing left wrist palmar flexion in the transition. One thing that I see in your most recent video, is that your backswing shoulder plane is too horizonatal (the view you provided isn't a true DTL, so viewing the shoulder plane is a bit skewed). See in this video, even using a wood off the tee box, Hogan's front shoulder turns more down resulting in a more vertical shoulder backswing plane. Of note, in this video of Hogan, he clearly isn't hitting a ball that fades right. He hits a ball that appears to start right and moves left...I think Hogan hit plenty of draws. [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDO9GKrdS0I[/VIDEO]

[Hogan Project]

[Hogan Project]

Quote:

I continue to enjoy your thread, and parts of "your" swing are improving--notably squeezing the elbows together and increasing left wrist palmar flexion in the transition. One thing that I see in your most recent video, is that your backswing shoulder plane is too horizonatal (the view you provided isn't a true DTL, so viewing the shoulder plane is a bit skewed). See in this video, even using a wood off the tee box, Hogan's front shoulder turns more down resulting in a more vertical shoulder backswing plane.

Of note, in this video of Hogan, he clearly isn't hitting a ball that fades right. He hits a ball that appears to start right and moves left...I think Hogan hit plenty of draws.[if IE]>

[Hogan Project]

Quote:

Wow. I tried to read as much of this as I could possibly handle. I think I got to page 6 or 7 before my brain shut down.

Parts of this are sad. Parts are funny, amusing, aggravating, inspiring, confusing, and just plain weird.

"Hogan Project" (I don't recall seeing your name at any point): I commend you for your persistence and your dedication along with your attention to detail. There are many people who could benefit greatly from these qualities you possess and exhibit strongly. I'm amused by your desire to try and do so much on your own instead of leaning on the decades of research, improvement in technology and probably dozens of PGA professionals nearby you that could help your golf game and accelerate your progress (the analogy of crossing the 390,000 sq ft desert with a tiny water bottle and no map couldn't be any better). I'm completely stumped by the "goal" that you continue to state, that you only desire to have a swing that looks like Hogan's. You seem like quite a character (I mean that in a positive way), hopefully I get to meet you one day.

Here's what I think: you love golf. I think most members on here do. You have somehow convinced yourself that you could never possibly be a scratch player (or better). You honestly do not believe that you can play par golf one day. So instead of setting that as a goal, which in your mind would be impossible, you set off on a separate mission, to imitate one of the best swings in history, with no "direct" intention of playing better golf because that is less scary to you (funny how you mention the "possible," "indirect" benefits that, "could" come from this. Read: SCORING). You can't seem to acknowledge that with your approach (NOT EVEN READING HOGAN'S BOOK!!?!, etc.) you've created an equally difficult task. I don't mean to sound harsh. This allows you to continue to play the game you love, while making progress on a chart no one else uses or relates to.  You might not want to admit it, but you would get more enjoyment & satisfaction (I'm not saying it would be easier) out of saying, "I'm going to become the best golfer I can possibly be," and seeking a PGA professional, studying as much as you can, and practicing as much as you can. I guarantee it.  I know we have different opinions but you cannot deny that you have chosen a more obscure goal than most members on this board. Most people just want to play better golf. You want to imitate a swing. Now if you fail, you don't have to face the reality that you failed at golf, you only failed at imitating Hogan, which to you is much less frightening.  The fact that you play in tournaments and you keep score doesn't help your case. These are blatant signs that you want to get better at golf.

I would bet my house right now that when you get to "Take 100", even if you are able to make an absolute shining replica of a Hogan swing at 60% or 70% speed, or a 100% speed practice swing, when you take that swing to hit a ball at 100% or close to it, you will have significant breakdowns from P5-P7 and maybe worse. I would go even further (which I know you'll say is irrelevant to your goal) to predict that your average score will be within 3 strokes of what it is now. Especially if you're not spending much time on your short game.

I hope I don't sound negative. I'm just giving my honest feedback. I think you should consider taking some advice here and doing an honest self re-evaluation.

-Taylor

Thanks for the honesty Taylor. Lol, I'm interested to know what your definition of "sad" is and which parts of my project you categorize as so. My wife says all of it is sad and aggravating and just plain weird. Some of your analysis of me is spot on, but some is waaaaaaay off. I think what you've said goes back to a post I made regarding "golf goals" (not sure if you saw that one...it may have been beyond the 6th or 7th page lol. Unshut that brain and check it out....that may shed some light). I think the people that have the most difficulty in understanding what I am doing have yet to seperate their personal golf goals from mine.

First off, I don't just love golf, I'm incredibly addicted to it. But it's not specifically about golf. The love is about geometry, motion, analysis, physics, and trying to teach myself something new. Don't know if I'll fail or succeed....it's the trying part that is fun for me. There was nothing much wrong with my original swing, but I had no desire to score any lower because the guys I play with are competetitive in the 90's.....high 90's lol. I've never said that I couldn't be a scratch player or better, just that right now, scoring is not my focus. I'm happy and content scoring in the 90's from the white tees. Trust me, there may come a time when I get the swing as close as I physically can, and I get bored with the 90's and white tees, then I will switch focus to ball flight, trajectory, scoring, etc. (And knowing me, this will happen). Right now, this project is only about getting close to a specific mechanical movement.

Funny that you mention "to imitate one of the best swings in history." I remember when I first got the idea of doing this project. I was fooling around with Stack n Tilt that I found in a golf magazine. (I have a video somewhere on youtube of my S&T; days). I got onto youtube and was researching S&T;, and stumbled across some old B&W; footage of a dude in a white hat. I had no idea who it was. Can't remember, but I think the video title or the comment section had something to do with S&T.; Had no idea if he hit a draw or fade. Had no idea that he was considered the best ball-striker of all time. Had no idea that he was a dominator in his time. Had no idea of the majors and other wins. All I saw was a cool lookin swing lol. That's it. And if there had been someone sitting there beside me telling me of Hogan's myth and alleged secrets, I still wouldn't have been affected, cause all I cared about was the mechanical swing itself.

I haven't played in tournamemts yet, but it would be cool to play on the Golf Channel AM Tour. I've been playing with the same guys since 2007; we have lots of fun out there, but it would be fun to play with new people.

My absolute favorite part of your post is "if you are able to make an absolute shining replica of a Hogan swing at 60% or 70%." Lol, If I am able to do that, YES...I'LL TAKE IT.....SUCCESS!!!!

I herby state that I'm going to become the best golfer I can possibly be.......while finding out how close I can come to the Hogan swing mechanic.:)

Man, now I'm sittin here daydreamin....an absolute replica at 60 or 70%....whew, if I could do that, I wouldn't be doing any more project....I would be out enjoying some freshly cut green grass and some 4.25" holes!

So what side of the earth are you on? Hope we can get together and play a round some day....but I'll be hitting from the white tees. (This just sparked a question I have about which tees people hit from and why. Will post it in the main forum area).

- Anthony

[sean_miller]

What if you had approximately 60-70% of Ray Allen's free throw mechanics, including the bouncing of the ball at the stripe, but your actual release of the ball looked like Chuck Hayes?!? I just made up that stat, but some people suggest it's all about impact and that every other Hoganesque element is irrelevant. But it's not their hobby now, is it?!?

[Hogan Project]

What if you had approximately 60-70% of Ray Allen's free throw mechanics, including the bouncing of the ball at the stripe, but your actual release of the ball looked like Chuck Hayes?!? I just made up that stat, but some people suggest it's all about impact and that every other Hoganesque element is irrelevant. But it's not their hobby now, is it?!?

Yes, am focusing on the irrelevant part.

[Taylor Johnson]

Quote:

What if you had approximately 60-70% of Ray Allen's free throw mechanics, including the bouncing of the ball at the stripe, but your actual release of the ball looked like Chuck Hayes?!? I just made up that stat, but some people suggest it's all about impact and that every other Hoganesque element is irrelevant. But it's not their hobby now, is it?!?

Then you would be a horrific free throw shooter. Absolutely horrific. He averaged 36.8% from the from the free throw line in 2008-09!!!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Hayes#Player_profile)

Yes, the release in a free throw is exponentially more important than the address & cock positions. Yes, the impact position in golf is more important than the backswing and the follow through.

"The love is about geometry, motion, analysis, physics, and trying to teach myself something new. Don't know if I'll fail or succeed....it's the trying part that is fun for me."

Anthony, this sums up the part that is sad for me. You love and are addicted to the same game I am and we all are. All of those aspects are involved in BECOMING A BETTER GOLFER (which in my opinion should be your primary goal). It is sad that you are limiting your enjoyment, development and entire experience of this game and all the elements you mentioned by going about your project in the way that you are. I'm not saying you aren't having fun or getting anything out of it, that part is evident from the first two posts in this thread. This is page 13. I'm asking you to consider for 60 seconds that there is a way for you to get more enjoyment, experience more personal growth & get more satisfaction if you take a slightly different approach. I'm asking you to allow your mind to imagine for a brief second that sometimes we go off the beaten path because the beaten path is a little bit uncomfortable. Imagine that you could be a single digit handicap by sometime in 2013 if you changed your course today. Would you REALLY continue with what you're doing? Please be honest about this part.

"I wouldn't be doing any more project....I would be out enjoying some freshly cut green grass and some 4.25" holes!"

This bangs the nail on the head for me. There is more out there waiting for you RIGHT NOW, and you know it, but for some mysterious reason to your wife, many readers on here and me, you have decided to take the long way to your destination. It's completely baffling. An amazing part about golf, as you fully know, is that there is no mountain top. The journey is forever. The is no finish line, there is no peak. We climb and we climb and we climb and we climb. For some reason you want to hang out at the base of the mountain, admiring the infinite beauty, making sure your hiking gear is functioning perfectly, making sure your map is 100% spot on. Sure, you run up a side hill here and there, but something brings you right back down. I'm asking you to come with us. I promise you'll be glad that you did.

All the respect in the world to you, and the best of luck. I live in Colorado USA, just north of Denver.

Taylor

[Hogan Project]

[Hogan Project]

Pushing extra hard off the right foot....but probably need to push harder. I notice that my lower body and feet are always late in coming through, so I figured that one way to speed it up and get more in sync is to push with the right. I have no idea if I should be intentionally doing this or if it should just happen. Will investigate that more after I learn more about the takeaway.

[Hogan Project]

Focus is on takeaway to the top. But I did a few full swings just to see where the mechanics are right now. From takeaway to the top, things are progressing ok. Major thing that need work is my lower body; specifically the left side. It appears to get set too early. I think its outracing the upper body when going to the top. Also, you can't see from this angle, but I'm getting too upright at the top (will do a DTL analysis too). Now I haven't gotten into the transition and after, but wanted to compare what I see anyway. For that portion of the swing, I'm just doing in my mind what I think is happening, although I'll get into the details of it in next few months...........or years.

Things I notice right now:
- I don't fall towards the target during transition. (I'm intentionally just doing the HCD to the top and holding it for a second or two, then I swing around, so there is no type of falling forward momentum).
- My left arm bends from transition and thru rest of dwnswing. (No idea right now).
- My head (eyes) follows the ball. (Because I'm still want to immediately watch where the ball goes)
- My right leg/knee seems to collapse towards the target on the downswing. (No idea right now)

[Hogan Project]

Take 27.

[Hogan Project]

Regarding the head: I've been losing sleep about this phenomenon for weeks now. I've come to the conclusion that I'm watching the ball at address (seems common sense that one should be watching the ball, but after talking to Kim about it, I've come to a different theory now). I told Kim about my "moving head" issue. She listened unwillingly, as usual, but gave some enlightening feedback from the perspective of a non-golfer.....or make that.....a golf-hater.

I told her that I am intently focused on the ball at address (took me a few aggravating minutes to explain what address is ). And that I take the club away with my eyes still focused on the ball, and I get to the top of the swing with my eyes focused on the ball, and I swing down with my eyes focused on the ball, and I make impact still lookin at the ball, and as the ball flies away, I am still trying my best to focus on the ball....to make sure it is going where I wanted it to in the beginning.

She said "who cares what your head does?? Aren't you just hitting a stupid ball??"

I said "yes, but because I'm trying to get as close to Hogan's movements as possible, I want my head to do the same type movement."

She said "ugggggh. whatever."

I asked her how I could make my head/eyes NOT follow the ball as it took off. She says, "Why don't you just keep looking at the same spot where the ball was."

I said "hmmmmm, don't know about that. Then I would have to focus on the ball from address to impact, then refocus it on the same spot where it was. Just seems like to much focus effort."

She says, "well then just look at a spot right next to the ball...like maybe behind it or in front of it or something........ok, are we done talking about this now??? (of course that last part was with an attitude lol, but she set a light bulb off!!!)

Now this is all theory right now, but I'm now thinking that if I focus my eyes on a spot right behind the ball, maybe a blade of grass or something on the ground, I won't follow the ball thru impact, cause I'll be looking at the grass, which, in my mind, doesn't move, unlike the ball flying away. Now, as I'm coming up with this brilliant theory, I'm thinking that I've just invented/uncovered some new extraordinary thing, but all you pro instructors out there probably teach this trick all the time, so please don't laugh too hard at my lack of golfing knowledge.

[MiniBlueDragon]

There was a book I read once where the author suggested looking at a point directly in front of the ball rather than behind it with the idea that you should be striking ball and then ground. Your mind is powerful enough to know what you're trying to achieve and to help where possible.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Fun thread.  Just saw it for the first time.  The thing that always amazed me about Hogan and others with similar swings was their ability to start the downswing with the legs while the club was still going back.  Seems like an incredibly hard move.

[Hogan Project]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

There was a book I read once where the author suggested looking at a point directly in front of the ball rather than behind it with the idea that you should be striking ball and then ground. Your mind is powerful enough to know what you're trying to achieve and to help where possible.

That makes more sense than my initial thoughts of looking at the blade behind ball. Will experiment.

[Brian Robinson]

I humbly disagree. Hogan is a great benchmark, it was his swing that made me a pro.

[Hogan Project]

Alllllrighty! I finally got out on a driving range and hit actual balls. My usual routine is to go to the range once a week, get a bucket of balls, then head to the chipping area and spend about 2 hours working on only chipping and pitching. I scatter the range balls all around the practice green; some in the rough areas, some on the edge of the fringe, some up hill, some down hill, some 10 yds away, and some 30 yds away. They're in as many random places as possible. Once I've gotten at least 20 balls within a club distance to the pin, I leave the balls there and head to the range to swing at the air. Yep, I said air.....I place a tee in the ground and go through the same motions as if there was a ball there. Purpose for this is to practice swing feelings. There's no ball involved cause I tend to focus too much on what the ball does instead of what I should be doing before the ball is contacted. Of course it doesn't make sense to most people, but by now you know that I'm not the predictable type, and don't follow the same route as most others.

Well, today I decided to cut the pitching session short and take the balls to the range. Man, it felt good to finally hit a ball into something other than my 15 feet basement swing wall! Ball flight, contact, and trajectory weren't as bad as I predicted. Most of them were fades. And there were also some tops, mis-hits, pulls, pushes, etc. As I look at the video, the thing that stands out the most is my alignment. It is waaaaaaa off. I think my right foot is much too far away from the target line. Maybe my whole body is too far from the ball. I've never noticed this in the basement. I also don't really know how to line up or where to put the ball in my stance. Still don't care much about that right now. Main thing I am concerned about right now is my lack of making a full turn and the over-the-top. Will be getting to the range once a week to get this same footage to see how things change over next few months as I study the OTT issue.

[Hogan Project]

Another weird thing about this session: When I addressed the ball, everything felt and looked normal. Felt like I was a natural/normal distance from the ball. But as I took the club away, felt like the ball was way too far away from me, and as I swung thru, felt like I had to reach for the ball. But when I got back to addrs again, ball dist felt normal, so no adjstmnts.. Take a swing and feel reaching again....repeat cycle 24 times. Why didn't I get closer? Cause address "FELT" close enough. Next time I'm gonna grit my teeth and force myself to get closer at address and hope I don't crush one off the hozel.

And looking at the slow mo, my takeaway is waaaaaaaaaay inside. Man, when did that start happening?? Grrrrr....the joy of the golf swing.

Edit: Now that I look at the video a few times, it even looks like I'm standing too far away and reaching for the ball!!!! What the heck!

Edit Edit: I didn't complete ANY backswings. What the heck was I rushing for? The ball wasn't gonna jump off the tee and run away. For the next 10 seconds, I hate golf. 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10. Ok.....back to the game I love.