Anti doping agency to consider adding tobacco to the banned list...

[meenman]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You can't argue that 2nd hand smoke is both a health and air pollution issue.  I prefer not to smell cigarettes or cigars when I'm on a golf course or in a park.  No harm comes to me if the person on the course is eating fast food so I don't see how they are related.  I don't like to see individuals rights taken away, but it's not fair to non-smokers who don't want to smell smoke or risk their health when in public so either way someone loses.

It's not fair to me that someone collects welfare for doing nothing, while I work all week and pay taxes.

It's not fair to me to have to stand in line behind someone that hasnt bathed in days.

It's not fair to me that everyone doesnt vote the same way I do.

Life isnt always *fair* - but singling out a single group because you dont agree with what they do is dangerous. Non smokers can be more obnoxious than smokers. Most people now smoke outside or away from those it may offend. That isnt good enough for the militant non smoker, they feel that they are somehow *superior.*

If you are that offended by smoking, run for office or go support candidates that agree with your thoughts that it should be banned. Currently tobacco is a legal substance, and those that smoke should not be confined to the top of some mountain millions of miles away from you, just to make you happy.

[Gresh24]

Quote:

Forcing people to inhale second hand smoke while they work was creating liability and health insurance problems.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  I already stated that very few "bar" employees have health insurance, and I don't know of any health insurance providers that ask or adjust rates for exposure to second hand smoke.  I am on a committee at my employer that selects our health insurance coverage and we renew every year.  I've filled out many applications with a variety of carriers and that is never an issue/question.  That would be like having a spouse (or person you live with) at home that smokes causing an insurance issue.

[newtogolf]

That's because OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) banned smoking in the workplace.

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Quote:

I'm not sure what you mean here.  I already stated that very few "bar" employees have health insurance, and I don't know of any health insurance providers that ask or adjust rates for exposure to second hand smoke.  I am on a committee at my employer that selects our health insurance coverage and we renew every year.  I've filled out many applications with a variety of carriers and that is never an issue/question.  That would be like having a spouse (or person you live with) at home that smokes causing an insurance issue.

[newtogolf]

I agree life isn't fair, but body odor doesn't cause cancer and other health related issues.  I guess using your logic alcoholics should be allowed to drink and drive too.  Why should sober people be the only ones that drive, alcohol is legal too.

No one said non-smokers were superior, those are your words.  I don't think it's acting superior because they just don't want to inhale your nasty 2nd hand smoke in public places.  Smoke all you want in your house or in your car just don't force others to suffer the effects of it because you're addicted.

Originally Posted by meenman

It's not fair to me that someone collects welfare for doing nothing, while I work all week and pay taxes.

It's not fair to me to have to stand in line behind someone that hasnt bathed in days.

It's not fair to me that everyone doesnt vote the same way I do.

Life isnt always *fair* - but singling out a single group because you dont agree with what they do is dangerous. Non smokers can be more obnoxious than smokers. Most people now smoke outside or away from those it may offend. That isnt good enough for the militant non smoker, they feel that they are somehow *superior.*

If you are that offended by smoking, run for office or go support candidates that agree with your thoughts that it should be banned. Currently tobacco is a legal substance, and those that smoke should not be confined to the top of some mountain millions of miles away from you, just to make you happy.

[meenman]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I agree life isn't fair, but body odor doesn't cause cancer and other health related issues.  I guess using your logic alcoholics should be allowed to drink and drive too.  Why should sober people be the only ones that drive, alcohol is legal too.

No one said non-smokers were superior, those are your words.  I don't think it's acting superior because they just don't want to inhale your nasty 2nd hand smoke in public places.  Smoke all you want in your house or in your car just don't force others to suffer the effects of it because you're addicted.

Flawed logic - while alcohol is legal, driving intoxicated is not.

The so called scientific studies on 2nd hand smoke are flawed at best. You are fed by the machine - tobacco is the easiest product to tax when millions have been brain washed by government *studies*

You breathe in more pollutants walking down the street than you will from a smoker standing 10 feet away from you outside.

[newtogolf]

Smoking in the workplace, restaurants, airplanes and some other public places isn't legal either yet you argue you should have the right to do so.

Studies are always flawed when they conclude something that disagrees with ones personal opinion.  The reason it's so highly taxed is because of the health issues it causes those who don't have health insurance.  I appreciate your willingness to pay more taxes but would prefer you didn't kill yourself and those around you to do so, just write a check.

You can't justify your bad habit by pointing to other sources of pollution.  We all would like cleaner air, the low hanging fruit is tobacco products right now as they serve no purpose - chew nicotine gum if you need the high from it.  I lost two grandparents and a number of aunts and uncles due to smoking so I'm not likely ever to agree with you.  We can just agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by meenman

Flawed logic - while alcohol is legal, driving intoxicated is not.

The so called scientific studies on 2nd hand smoke are flawed at best. You are fed by the machine - tobacco is the easiest product to tax when millions have been brain washed by government *studies*

You breathe in more pollutants walking down the street than you will from a smoker standing 10 feet away from you outside.

[meenman]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Smoking in the workplace, restaurants, airplanes and some other public places isn't legal either yet you argue you should have the right to do so.

Studies are always flawed when they conclude something that disagrees with ones personal opinion.  The reason it's so highly taxed is because of the health issues it causes those who don't have health insurance.  I appreciate your willingness to pay more taxes but would prefer you didn't kill yourself and those around you to do so, just write a check.

You can't justify your bad habit by pointing to other sources of pollution.  We all would like cleaner air, the low hanging fruit is tobacco products right now as they serve no purpose - chew nicotine gum if you need the high from it.  I lost two grandparents and a number of aunts and uncles due to smoking so I'm not likely ever to agree with you.  We can just agree to disagree.

I am not arguing about smoking indoors or public places, I am arguing against some people's belief's that people shouldnt smoke because they might walk by them outside.

Health insurance issues are nothing more than scares from the government to get the sheep to go along with the higher taxes. Do some research and see how much of that tax money actually goes to funding those without health insurance. The sheep will always agree to let someone else pay the tax burden - something like all the poor and lazy saying to tax the rich.

Once again, I am not a smoker - really dont care for the smell of cigarettes around me. But I dont believe in infringing on smokers rights either.

[dhanson]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You can't justify your bad habit by pointing to other sources of pollution.

this is what smoking is: a bad habit. alcohol is sold and consumed in "designated" areas, just as us smokers are relegated to specific areas where we can smoke. but telling me i can't smoke outside on a golf course at 6AM, when i go out as a single, with no one around me for over 100 yards? c'mon, man!

[newtogolf]

I think we actually agree more than we disagree.  I'm not for banning cigarettes, I don't believe in infringing on peoples rights nor do I wish mine to be infringed upon.  I don't expect to walk into a cigar bar and not inhale 2nd hand smoke, but I should be able to go to a sporting event or park with my kids and not be surrounded by 2nd hand smoke which sometimes causes me to get a headache and triggers asthma attacks for my son.  If parks or golf courses ban smoking I'm all for them creating designated areas for the smokers to smoke within them, it just should be done so everyone can be accomdated.

Originally Posted by meenman

I am not arguing about smoking indoors or public places, I am arguing against some people's belief's that people shouldnt smoke because they might walk by them outside.

Health insurance issues are nothing more than scares from the government to get the sheep to go along with the higher taxes. Do some research and see how much of that tax money actually goes to funding those without health insurance. The sheep will always agree to let someone else pay the tax burden - something like all the poor and lazy saying to tax the rich.

Once again, I am not a smoker - really dont care for the smell of cigarettes around me. But I dont believe in infringing on smokers rights either.

[newtogolf]

I'm not saying that at all, if you're by yourself I don't care what you do.

Originally Posted by dhanson

this is what smoking is: a bad habit. alcohol is sold and consumed in "designated" areas, just as us smokers are relegated to specific areas where we can smoke. but telling me i can't smoke outside on a golf course at 6AM, when i go out as a single, with no one around me for over 100 yards? c'mon, man!

[dhanson]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm not saying that at all, if you're by yourself I don't care what you do.

i guess i could've posted what i posted without directly quoting your post. i'm talking about the thread in general, rather than trying to directly refute what you're saying.

[sean_miller]

Personally I don't give two shits whether or not someone smokes, just get your collective shit together and stop dropping butts all over the place. I've golfed with 4 smokers this year and every god damned one of them dropped their butts whereever they pleased. Now if I ask them not to do that, I'm infringing on their rights. The right to be a dick being high on their lists apparently.

Sorry about the cussing, but it reeeeeeally grinds my gears.

[Golf'nBiker]

The 2d hand smoke issue is BS....not saying that smoke in a confined area will not spark an asthmatic attack...not saying that at all.  But, try telling your boss that you pissed hot because you were at a party all night where pot was burning a lot.  Won't fly, you can not get stoneyed PERIOD!  there are guys that will NOT ride in a golf cart w/me because I smoke while golfing; cigs and cigars.  RIDE in the cart...what 5-6 mph..to the ball for the next shot...c'mon!  I agree that aftersmoke smells rancid..I dont smoke in my vehicle...it stinks, but outside..and if a course bans all types of smoking outdoors, they will suffer the consequences...JMO!  Back on track...dropping butts on the course is frik'n rude, not because its a golf course, but because its rude.  those that toss a butt out their kitchen window or off their back porch will never stop dropping them on the course.  Butts on the ground have been an issue as long as it has been sold.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That's because OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) banned smoking in the workplace.

So what?  Their "ban" is very vague, and they do not, and cannot, enforce it.  Enforcement is only done by legislation.  There are still state and local areas where smoking is allowed in some public places, establishments, and workplaces.

Again, what "health insurance problems" are you referring to?

[newtogolf]

I'm a business owner, one of the factors in determining our corporate rate for employee health insurance is "smoke free environment" policy.  Our policy entitles us to a discount on everyones overall premium if we maintain a "smoke free" workplace.  If we did not the smokers and non-smokers would pay a higher premium regardless of other coverages they selected.

Originally Posted by Gresh24

So what?  Their "ban" is very vague, and they do not, and cannot, enforce it.  Enforcement is only done by legislation.  There are still state and local areas where smoking is allowed in some public places, establishments, and workplaces.

Again, what "health insurance problems" are you referring to?

[Gresh24]

Actually, the more I attempt to research it, I can't find anything about a general ban of smoking in the workplace by OSHA.  In fact OSHA themselves say second hand smoke does not reach the levels of their own air quality requirements, and from what I can find, they only have very limited 'bans' in certain workspaces and places.  They also acknowledge that bans are only enforced by legislation and not their agency.  The only thing I found said even OSHA's limited smoking ban was not mandatory.  I'm a little confused.

newtogolf, can you please link something?

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm a business owner, one of the factors in determining our corporate rate for employee health insurance is "smoke free environment" policy.  Our policy entitles us to a discount on everyones overall premium if we maintain a "smoke free" workplace.  If we did not the smokers and non-smokers would pay a higher premium regardless of other coverages they selected.

Well, as I mentioned, I also select health insurance for my workplace, and have never seen that.  What if your employees don't have a smoke free home environment?  Do they pay more?

What insurance carrier offers this discount?  And does this mean you can't even let your smokers smoke at all during work hours?  No designated areas allowed?

Also, if you say smoking is banned in all workplaces, why would a discount even be offered?

[newtogolf]

http://www.health.ny.gov/publications/3403/

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Actually, the more I attempt to research it, I can't find anything about a general ban of smoking in the workplace by OSHA.  In fact OSHA themselves say second hand smoke does not reach the levels of their own air quality requirements, and from what I can find, they only have very limited 'bans' in certain workspaces and places.  They also acknowledge that bans are only enforced by legislation and not their agency.  The only thing I found said even OSHA's limited smoking ban was not mandatory.  I'm a little confused.

newtogolf, can you please link something?