My Swing (Mr Putz)

[Mr Putz]

I've been having a lot of trouble being consistent with my driver and could use some swing tips.  Below is a video of me hitting a few at the range, but I have on idea if it is a fundamentally sound golf swing or not.  I'm getting about 280+ yards of carry on the three drives in the video, but I can't seem to consistently put it together on the course.  I've never had a formal lesson so I'm not sure if my footing, stance or anything about my swing is correct.

Any advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.  I'd be really pleased if I could find a way to replicate the three swings in the video on a daily basis.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rebelxs/6234511754/

[Nole77]

Where is your aiming point in that video?  At first glance, it looks like you're setting up fairly closed, which probably leads to a fairly consistent draw and or hooks/duck hooks.  Is that right?

[Mr Putz]

Hi.  I'm very closed, but that is all I can do to eliminate the draw and hooks/duck hooks.  The balls I hit were all straight as an arrow.  If I open up my stance I hit short balls that have a tendency to hook.

As for my aiming point...... I don't really have one, which has created a lot of problems for me.  I was basically aiming for somewhere between the two hills in the foreground.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Mr Putz

Hi.  I'm very closed, but that is all I can do to eliminate the draw and hooks/duck hooks.  The balls I hit were all straight as an arrow.  If I open up my stance I hit short balls that have a tendency to hook.

As for my aiming point...... I don't really have one, which has created a lot of problems for me.  I was basically aiming for somewhere between the two hills in the foreground.

I was going to ask, "You're missing left a lot aren't you."

Stance fixes are backwards.  Aim left to hit it right and right to hit it left.  Without a massive swing overhaul, Get your arms higher in the air on the backswing and aim your feet more left if you want to start hitting it straighter.  Check it out:

Yellow line is the shoulder plane.  Note that your upper left arm wants to stay on the shoulder plane.  Keep that in mind for a moment.  The screenshot gives the illusion that your arms are much higher above that plane because you let your left arm break at the elbow.  The clubhead is pretty much pointing 10 feet past the ball or so, and that doesn't lie.  Note Jamie's clubhead is pointing a foot or so past the ball.  This allows his arms to drop a lot without the fear of hooking the ball due to his strong grip:

With the arms higher, they can drop some onto the right downswing plane.  It will probably feel like you are coming over the top a lot, but it should work to eliminate this unnatural fighting of the release of the clubhead:

This is obviously holding it off so it doesn't go left.  That's pretty much it.

One question I would ask, If your natural tendency (I believe everyone's natural tendency), is to match your arm plane and shoulder plane, why not just make a steeper shoulder turn, get the left shoulder pointing down at the ball, and the arms will get higher in the air as a result?  Just putting a bug in your brain...

[Mr Putz]

bunkerputt

I really appreciate the breakdown and the graphics that you provided.  I played baseball for the first 22 years of my life before taking up golf, so my natural tendencies are to resort to what my body knows.  I'm not stretching nearly as much as I should be, and this is the reason I can't, not won't, keep my left arm straight.

I've tinkered so much with my stance and closing my shoulder that I'm completely twisted around.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Mr Putz

bunkerputt

I really appreciate the breakdown and the graphics that you provided.  I played baseball for the first 22 years of my life before taking up golf, so my natural tendencies are to resort to what my body knows.  I'm not stretching nearly as much as I should be, and this is the reason I can't, not won't, keep my left arm straight.

I've tinkered so much with my stance and closing my shoulder that I'm completely twisted around.

Left arm straight at the top isn't a priority to play good golf.  Fred Couples plays that way, for example.  I generally don't like to pattern my swing after someone who is one of the most naturally talented athletes in the game, though.  As far as athleticism, well, I'm a programmer for a living.  That should give you enough info.  I try to build a swing that works the way my body wants to move in the most efficient way possible.

I'm not going to lie, swinging like Jamie Sadlowski takes a lot of raw athleticism.  If I were 22, I might try it.  Heck, I did try it for a while.  I just got frustrated with not being able to hit the ball where I wanted to.  If you are committed to this way of swinging, great for you.  Just get your arms higher in the air and you should do fine.

As far as stance is concerned, with the driver, square to slightly closed is fine.  Shut is not what you want.  The stance is there to provide a foundation for your body to move efficiently against.  If your stance is open, you are going to find it more difficult to move laterally toward the target, simply because the left hip socket would be out in front of the toes instead of over the femur, putting you off balance.  So you tend to turn the hips more which tends to pull the path to the left in an effort to remain balanced.  Reverse all that for the driver.  Slightly left path works fine with irons, works not-so-fine with driver.

Check your stance by placing something straight on your heels, not your toes.  Also, lay down a rod or club pointing at your target roughly along the target line.  Step back and see if they are parallel, closed, or open.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Get your arms higher in the air on the backswing

With the arms higher, they can drop some onto the right downswing plane.

One question I would ask, If your natural tendency (I believe everyone's natural tendency), is to match your arm plane and shoulder plane, why not just make a steeper shoulder turn, get the left shoulder pointing down at the ball, and the arms will get higher in the air as a result?  Just putting a bug in your brain...

If you could, bp, clarify some of what you've said. You told this fellow to get his arms higher in the air, showed a picture of Sadlowski, and then gave some advice regarding the shoulders.

Though as you suspect I agree with the shoulder pitch bit, I completely disagree with anything related to "arms higher in the air." My one question is simply this: why would you lift your arms higher in the air so that they can "drop"? Dropping is not an "in-plane" motion and is thus wasted effort. Why not put the hands and arms in a position where they can deliver their force straight down the plane without having to first "drop" to begin with?

[Mr Putz]

By no means am I committed to this swing, I just had no idea what I was doing wrong to cause the problem.  I definitely need to stretch more and focus on keeping my let arm straight.

I'll await the verdict on getting my hands higher in the air.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

If you could, bp, clarify some of what you've said. You told this fellow to get his arms higher in the air, showed a picture of Sadlowski, and then gave some advice regarding the shoulders.

Though as you suspect I agree with the shoulder pitch bit, I completely disagree with anything related to "arms higher in the air." My one question is simply this: why would you lift your arms higher in the air so that they can "drop"? Dropping is not an "in-plane" motion and is thus wasted effort. Why not put the hands and arms in a position where they can deliver their force straight down the plane without having to first "drop" to begin with?

Sure.  First, to comment about the general direction I sent him in...  I agree with you, first off, that a "drop" takes some timing, and in general, we want to eliminate as much of this as possible if we are going to be machine-like ball strikers.  I'm not sure how much physical effort is wasted in this case, though, because gravity should be doing most of the work.  As Nicklaus said, the first move in the golf swing is a "gravity" move.  I'm trying to give the OP advice that will help him hit the ball better with his current mechanics .  I don't know the OP, so I can't say he is gung-ho about a total swing overhaul.  Not everyone is that way.  There's a lot to be said about taking someone where they're at, giving them confidence that some parts are good, and making small, digestible changes.  That is the basic advice I was giving him while leaving the door open for what I think is the right long-term fix, steeper shoulder turn.  Not sure if I actually accomplished that or just got him confused and in the wrong direction, so thanks for engaging here.

He has a flat shoulder turn and an arm drop.  Without changing this, he needs to get the club above his shoulder plane so that the club is on the right downswing path.  He has a fairly flat shoulder turn, as does Sadlowski.  I picked Jamie for comparison because their positions seemed somewhat similar to me.  Jamie uses the high arms and a drop for leverage.  He starts the arms above the shoulder plane:

Then he drops them down in line with the shoulders on the downswing:

Pulls them down like crazy and produces a square downswing path where the club is pointing at the ball:

Mr. Putz looks like this at a similar moment in the swing:

His arms haven't gotten back in front of his body and his club path is too much from the inside with the club pointing way outside the target line.  This is all because his arms at the top were too flat and not enough in front of his body.  Presumably, this is because he's trying to get leverage to hit the ball hard.  Without fighting that instinct, he needs to try to keep the right arm a little straighter at the top and try to push his arms away from his torso instead of behind it to create width if he wants to swing this way.  His arms also don't look like they were working as aggressively as Jamie's to get the club down to the ball.  Maybe you can comment and give him something to consider as an instructor.

[bunkerputt]

In thinking about it, I think the language "get the arms higher so they can drop" is probably misleading because I'm definitely not advocating an active arm drop of any kind.  I think a better way to describe what I'm trying to say is try to feel like you are keeping the arms more in front of the torso.  They will be pinned against the chest, but to Mr. Putz it will probably feel like they are out in front a la Jim Flick.  With them higher (actually on-plane instead of below), the natural motion of the hips going forward on the downswing will make it look like the club "drops" from the top instead of dropping below the plane.  I'm just saying the shaft will appear to flatten some causing the look of a drop without an active drop of the arms.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I'm not sure how much physical effort is wasted in this case, though, because gravity should be doing most of the work.

What Nicklaus "felt" is really not all that important, as feel isn't real.

The thing with any gravity-style "drop" is that gravity is too slow. We accelerate at much faster than 9.8m/s^2.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I'm trying to give the OP advice that will help him hit the ball better with his current mechanics.

I'm not sure what that means, exactly. :-) If his current mechanics remain then he'll swing the same. FWIW, a steeper shoulder turn isn't a "long-term" fix. Tilt to the left more. Done. We teach students to do this day in and day out. Takes a few swings.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

His arms haven't gotten back in front of his body and his club path is too much from the inside with the club pointing way outside the target line.  This is all because his arms at the top were too flat and not enough in front of his body.

I could say more, but as you know your arms don't stay in front of your body. Your left arm for example moves across your chest. If it fails to "unload" or get back the other way across your chest properly you can get into some bad positions.

As I see it Mr. Putz can do a few things. Four, specifically.

1. Line up properly. Or close to properly. More bend at the waist, a rounder back, and eyes looking more directly at the golf ball.
2. Tilt left more during the backswing (left shoulder down) to make sure the shoulder plane matches the one established in the setup.
3. Feel like his right arm never flexes. This will prevent the backswing with the arms from going waaaaaay too long.
4. Karate chop to get the arms down faster. The shoulders are well too far open, the right elbow way too far behind the right hip, at impact.

That's what I'd do with a brief explanation. I was mostly just trying to get the explanation out of you. I don't care if people have different ideas, tips, drills, suggestions... that's good. I do like it when the reasons for the suggestions are given, though, so the recipient can make a more informed decision.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

In thinking about it, I think the language "get the arms higher so they can drop" is probably misleading because I'm definitely not advocating an active arm drop of any kind.  I think a better way to describe what I'm trying to say is try to feel like you are keeping the arms more in front of the torso.  They will be pinned against the chest, but to Mr. Putz it will probably feel like they are out in front a la Jim Flick.  With them higher (actually on-plane instead of below), the natural motion of the hips going forward on the downswing will make it look like the club "drops" from the top instead of dropping below the plane.  I'm just saying the shaft will appear to flatten some causing the look of a drop without an active drop of the arms.

I don't think his arms are "below plane," but what plane are you interested in seeing him swing on? Elbow plane? Turned shoulder plane? Some other plane? There are of course an infinite number of planes.

He's pretty well on the elbow plane. His arms are slightly higher than his shoulder plane IIRC (can't download videos from Flickr easily, so I've only looked at it in a cursory fashion), so you could say they "mismatch" but that's more a matter of the shoulder plane being too flat, not something else. Why does he drop it inside, then? Because he has to in order not to come right over the top of it. But fixing that is akin to fixing the result, not the cause. At least in my opinion.

[johnthejoiner]

I personally wouldn't change a thing with your driver, just remember to find out exactly where the ball is positioned in your stance relative to your target

[johnthejoiner]

I hear this "feel isnt real" catchphrase used way too often, at what point does feel become real

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

I hear this "feel isnt real" catchphrase used way too often, at what point does feel become real

That's the point. It doesn't.