Joe Paterno and Penn State

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Please tell me that you guys are joking? "He was just an old man that ..............................". Insert whatever you want after that.

The guy did not have dementia, he was not senile. He was a perfectly sane human being with a functioning mind and body.

If a man witnesses a rape on the street and walks past it and does not help the victim, is that man that walked past not just as pathetic as the so called "man" committing the act? I'm sorry, but I've heard many people in PA try to defend this guy with every argument that you can possibly think of. Infinite illogical arguments have come up. One that I heard even went like this - "Paterno was from the old school and didn't snitch". Snitch? Listen, snitch is something very minor like "Man I just saw this guy smoking some sticky in his back yard... I'm gonna call the cops". That is snitching.

I seriously get sick when I hear these crazy ass arguments and I'm sorry if I come off out of character from my many posts on this board, but this is where my jokes stop and I have to sit back and scratch my head at some of you guys defending that rotten sob.

Just please think on this one line for me if you're skipping over this post and you're a Paterno backer, defender or apologist. If I donate millions to charity, help old women cross the street, give money and clothes to people and build my community's morale and economy up for 50 years, would those 50 years classify me as a good person if I don't report the torture of nearly 12 children?

You could honestly sit back and say... well hey, the guy was a god to us for 50 years... so what he didn't report child rape. You PSU fans/alumni are really delusional and quite frankly, insane. You guys got crazy with tOSU when the Jim Tressel/Pryor scandal came out and it was all fun and games and hilarious. Ours was football related and revolved around kids selling objects they owned to provide for their families and get access to some luxuries in life. Your scandal involved damn near more counts of child abuse than Paterno's age, and he helped to cover it up... and you still back PSU and Paterno?

I'm done with this thread, I can't wrap my mind around it.

If you put it that way, IMO if you did what you have in bold, that good definitely outweighs the bad of NOT REPORTING! Not reporting does not equate to actually committing the crime, it isn't nearly as reprehensive. Though I am not so sure JoePa can be rightfully attributed all those actions that you mention there. Not so sure being a great football coach outweighs not reporting ongoing child molestation.

Let's also not make it as if JoePa knew 12 children were being molested. He (most likely) knew there was a very good chance of foul play, but there is no way to tell the extent of the foul play he was aware of.

This isn't an attempt at defending JoePa, he failed terribly at upholding basic morals. What he did was absolutely terrible. This witch hunt on the face of PSU Football, however, is unwarranted as well.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

PSU football is not to blame.......

The PSU football program isn't at fault it's the money hungry administrators I've identified above that lost sight of their priorities who need to be punished.

I'd argue that PSU football is a core reason for the whole scandal.    Not PSU football players or staff, but the whole program .     It is the utterly blind allegiance to this large sacred cow that made all of those administrators so money hungry.     Their actions were solely driven by their greed and belief that protecting that money-generating program was more important than the safety and well being of possibly countless victims.     Honestly, if this whole thing involved the women's volleyball program, would all of these administrators have acted the same?    If the answer is yes (which I cannot believe), then these people exhibit a cowardice that is almost unfathomable.     But if the answer is no, then clearly the argument is that the egregious negligence they've exhibited is fundamentally influenced by the existence of an out-of-control perspective where football is more important than basic humanity, and that needs to be addressed.    Allowing that skewed perspective to continue unchecked would be a travesty.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

If you put it that way, IMO if you did what you have in bold, that good definitely outweighs the bad of NOT REPORTING! Not reporting does not equate to actually committing the crime, it isn't nearly as reprehensive. Though I am not so sure JoePa can be rightfully attributed all those actions that you mention there. Not so sure being a great football coach outweighs not reporting ongoing child molestation.

Let's also not make it as if JoePa knew 12 children were being molested. He (most likely) knew there was a very good chance of foul play, but there is no way to tell the extent of the foul play he was aware of.

This isn't an attempt at defending JoePa, he failed terribly at upholding basic morals. What he did was absolutely terrible. This witch hunt on the face of PSU Football, however, is unwarranted as well.

Not reporting and lying about what they knew is a crime.  Curley and Shultz are currently facing charges for both.

[RonTheSavage]

The NCAA gave SMU the death penalty for paying players back in 86. People were outraged that these guys were paying players under the table. How can they not in this case with Penn State? True it's not the players fault, but let them transfer without losing any eligibility.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by RonTheSavage

The NCAA gave SMU the death penalty for paying players back in 86. People were outraged that these guys were paying players under the table. How can they not in this case with Penn State? True it's not the players fault, but let them transfer without losing any eligibility.

The problem is that it is difficult to cite NCAA violations in this case.  Paying players is about as bad as it gets in terms of NCAA violations, and completely different.

As bad as this is, I think the NCAA will have a hard time enforcing any violations and penalties.

[RonTheSavage]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

The problem is that it is difficult to cite NCAA violations in this case.  Paying players is about as bad as it gets in terms of NCAA violations, and completely different.

As bad as this is, I think the NCAA will have a hard time enforcing any violations and penalties.

I see your point and you're right about this. I guess I was thinking they had some ethics policy they could enforce in this case.

[newtogolf]

I'd guess as well there are some ethics policies they could enforce, but that becomes a dangerous play for them as they could expose themselves to civil lawsuits from Sandusky's victims if they are supposed to be policing ethics violations along with each schools administrators.

Originally Posted by RonTheSavage

I see your point and you're right about this. I guess I was thinking they had some ethics policy they could enforce in this case.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

The problem is that it is difficult to cite NCAA violations in this case.  Paying players is about as bad as it gets in terms of NCAA violations, and completely different.

As bad as this is, I think the NCAA will have a hard time enforcing any violations and penalties.

Seems like the NCAA clearly have the teeth in their bylaws to do something if they have the courage to act.   Here is some language from NCAA Bylaw 2.4:

• For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education, and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty , and responsibility . These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program .   It is the responsibility of each institution to:

a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics........

PSU's actions were a clear violation of the NCAA's most basic principles that is well documented in their bylaws and code of conduct.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Seems like the NCAA clearly have the teeth in their bylaws to do something if they have the courage to act.   Here is some language from NCAA Bylaw 2.4:

For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education, and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty, and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program.   It is the responsibility of each institution to:

a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics........

PSU's actions were a clear violation of the NCAA's most basic principles that is well documented in their bylaws and code of conduct.

It's still a slippery slope and uncharted territory for the NCAA.  The NCAA has never punished anyone for criminal activities, or "unethical" conduct having nothing to do specifically with an athlete or a direct NCAA violation.  Coaches get arrested often, and make questionable ethical decisions.  Very tough to prove and easy to fight.

I'm not saying this isn't an extraordinary circumstance and that the NCAA shouldn't try to do something.  I think they should.  They may have difficulty, however, based on the legal analysis I've heard thus far.

[RonTheSavage]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'd guess as well there are some ethics policies they could enforce, but that becomes a dangerous play for them as they could expose themselves to civil lawsuits from Sandusky's victims if they are supposed to be policing ethics violations along with each schools administrators.

Wow, I didnt think that far ahead. We may be talking about this for a long time, before it's all said and done.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Parenthetically, I wonder how many of the people that are still supportive of Paterno and PSU football excoriate Tiger for his failings, even though his did not involve any direct physical harm to anyone?

In all fairness, the physical effects heal.  It's the emotional toll that destroys people.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

If you put it that way, IMO if you did what you have in bold, that good definitely outweighs the bad of NOT REPORTING! Not reporting does not equate to actually committing the crime, it isn't nearly as reprehensive. Though I am not so sure JoePa can be rightfully attributed all those actions that you mention there. Not so sure being a great football coach outweighs not reporting ongoing child molestation.

Let's also not make it as if JoePa knew 12 children were being molested. He (most likely) knew there was a very good chance of foul play, but there is no way to tell the extent of the foul play he was aware of.

This isn't an attempt at defending JoePa, he failed terribly at upholding basic morals. What he did was absolutely terrible. This witch hunt on the face of PSU Football, however, is unwarranted as well.

Again, statistics on these types of crimes tell us that these kind of predators can have victim counts into the hundreds.  Furthermore, Paterno knew damn well that Sandusky would have access to hundreds of at risk children through the Second Mile.  One phone call to the police could have potentially stopped it.

Originally Posted by RonTheSavage

The NCAA gave SMU the death penalty for paying players back in 86. People were outraged that these guys were paying players under the table. How can they not in this case with Penn State? True it's not the players fault, but let them transfer without losing any eligibility.

They would be able to transfer directly to another FBS school without having to sit out a year.

Originally Posted by Gresh24

The problem is that it is difficult to cite NCAA violations in this case.  Paying players is about as bad as it gets in terms of NCAA violations, and completely different.

As bad as this is, I think the NCAA will have a hard time enforcing any violations and penalties.

Lack of Institutional Control.  If actively covering up for a serial child-rapist doesn't fit this bill, I honestly don't know what does.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'd guess as well there are some ethics policies they could enforce, but that becomes a dangerous play for them as they could expose themselves to civil lawsuits from Sandusky's victims if they are supposed to be policing ethics violations along with each schools administrators.

They are probably equally exposed to civil lawsuits either way.   If they fail to act I imagine one could sue them saying that their failure to enforce their own policies was a contributing factor, and if they do act one could attempt to claim that their inadequate enforcement along the way was a contributor.    But frankly I think their risk is pretty tiny either way and probably not a deciding factor on whether the sanction PSU.    What they're probably far more worried about are precedents and how any action they choose sets in place expectations for future situations.

[newtogolf]

I agree, there much more to this all with the real estate and business dealings Corbett was involved with along with Board of Trustee members, and the PSU school administrators.   I wouldn't be surprised if some RICO or other conspiracy related charges aren't forth coming given the extent of the cover up and the fact PSU is a state school.  It seems a number of powerful people and businesses in Happy Valley had a huge interest during those years to make sure the Sandusky story didn't get out of their control.

Originally Posted by Clambake

They are probably equally exposed to civil lawsuits either way.   If they fail to act I imagine one could sue them saying that their failure to enforce their own policies was a contributing factor, and if they do act one could attempt to claim that their inadequate enforcement along the way was a contributor.    But frankly I think their risk is pretty tiny either way and probably not a deciding factor on whether the sanction PSU.    What they're probably far more worried about are precedents and how any action they choose sets in place expectations for future situations.

[newtogolf]

No doubt, the victims lawyers are just waiting for the dust to settle so they can get a complete list of all the plantiffs they intend to go after.

Originally Posted by RonTheSavage

Wow, I didnt think that far ahead. We may be talking about this for a long time, before it's all said and done.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

If you put it that way, IMO if you did what you have in bold, that good definitely outweighs the bad of NOT REPORTING! Not reporting does not equate to actually committing the crime, it isn't nearly as reprehensive. Though I am not so sure JoePa can be rightfully attributed all those actions that you mention there. Not so sure being a great football coach outweighs not reporting ongoing child molestation.

Let's also not make it as if JoePa knew 12 children were being molested. He (most likely) knew there was a very good chance of foul play, but there is no way to tell the extent of the foul play he was aware of.

This isn't an attempt at defending JoePa, he failed terribly at upholding basic morals. What he did was absolutely terrible. This witch hunt on the face of PSU Football, however, is unwarranted as well.

I can't even contribute to this "debate" my man. To say that charity can outweigh the immoral decision to turn your back on a disgusting and sick crime is exactly why PSU still has a minority of alumni and staff that back Paterno and the program. Forget the immigration laws in AZ. Put a wall around PSU and all of the supporters and fortify them - let the innocent and equally disgusted faculty/administration/students transfer to schools with higher intelligence and morals.

[newtogolf]

You're attemptig to justify unacceptable behavior in similar manners that terrorists use to justify the use of car bombs and flying planes into buildings.  You can't excuse Paterno for looking the other way while Sandusky raped kids because the PSU football team did good things for the community and charity.    You have the fortunate benefit of being an unbiased observer who is trying to be omniscient in thinking you know everyones motivations for why they acted as they did but if you were the child or family member of one of the children that Sandusky raped or molested you're likely to have a different perspective on it all.

We may never know the real reasons why Paterno and others chose to cover up what Sandusky did but to assume it was all good intentioned is quite naive.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

If you put it that way, IMO if you did what you have in bold, that good definitely outweighs the bad of NOT REPORTING! Not reporting does not equate to actually committing the crime, it isn't nearly as reprehensive. Though I am not so sure JoePa can be rightfully attributed all those actions that you mention there. Not so sure being a great football coach outweighs not reporting ongoing child molestation.

Let's also not make it as if JoePa knew 12 children were being molested. He (most likely) knew there was a very good chance of foul play, but there is no way to tell the extent of the foul play he was aware of.

This isn't an attempt at defending JoePa, he failed terribly at upholding basic morals. What he did was absolutely terrible. This witch hunt on the face of PSU Football, however, is unwarranted as well.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're attemptig to justify unacceptable behavior in similar manners that terrorists use to justify the use of car bombs and flying planes into buildings.  You can't excuse Paterno for looking the other way while Sandusky raped kids because the PSU football team did good things for the community and charity.    You have the fortunate benefit of being an unbiased observer who is trying to be omniscient in thinking you know everyones motivations for why they acted as they did but if you were the child or family member of one of the children that Sandusky raped or molested you're likely to have a different perspective on it all.

We may never know the real reasons why Paterno and others chose to cover up what Sandusky did but to assume it was all good intentioned is quite naive.

Exactly.

Pablo Escobar did all kinds of charitable things for the poorest citizens of Medellìn.  Does that excuse the murders?

[inthehole]

Yeah Ok, paterno = Escobar. Lol