Keeping Hands In

[threejack]

I've noticed something that I believe is causing my slice and inconsistency with woods over all. My hands start in close to my body at address causing an angle between the club and arm. I understand my hands are supposed to come back to that point and then I rotate through the ball. I have been straightening the angle between my arms and club shaft and going right after the ball. My hands at impact are higher, and further out.

Am I on to the right idea here?

[threejack]

and could this be why I'm more constant with my shorter irons because the angle is less and my hands will remain closer naturally??

[poser]

Almost everyone return their hands higher at impact than they were at address.   The below shows the elbow plane and shaft plane.  People usually play on the Elbow plane or the turned shoulder plane.  TSP your hands would actually return higher than the red line which is the elbow plane.  Really high hands at impact could be a factor but, highly doubt it's the root cause of your slice.  Face being open to the path is the reason you slice.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by threejack

My hands at impact are higher, and further out.

They should be, if you want to help ingrain draws. Raising the handle (i.e. less low to the ground and a bit more away from you) is a draw piece.

Originally Posted by poser

Face being open to the path is the reason you slice.

Right, and just to add to this -- something the OP may already know, but I'll repeat it anyway for newer members -- solving the slice problem doesn't start with making the open club face realtive to the path now closed to the path. That would produce a duck hook. You need to change the path.

[threejack]

I agree that the hands will be a little higher naturally. But I am talking about hand way out and hands pretty dang high. I go right after the ball, a very steep downswing and I don't use my shoulders to turn through the ball, I've been using my hands and arms which is screaming over the top

[JetFan1983]

OK, I just looked at your swing on your My Swing Thread, and a few things came to mind.

One, your hands are moving out and away from your body on the takeaway. You need to feel more Ricky Fowler there. You do the same first move as the student on the left in this video. You don't get the club behind you like the student on the left, but your hands are definitely moving away from your body. You just need to bring them a lot more inward, or deeper. The video here explains this part:

See. You do the same thing:

Hands moving away from the body and off the plane.

Your downswing is also very steep. This is very much contributing to the excessive side-spin you're getting with your longer clubs. The shaft should probably be around where I drew that green line at this point in your swing.

But getting your hands more inward -- or "deeper" as we say -- will help set you up to get the shaft closer to that green line though.

There aren't enough frames per second in this camera you are using so it's difficult to see much around impact. Also, like the others have said, making swings without a ball there is kind of a waste, but I'm bored, so I figured I'd help anyway. It looks pretty strongly like you're flipping, even if I can't really "see" it because of the frame rate. But flipping is also contributing to that steeper shaft angle on the downswing.

You probably need to feel like you are not "releasing the club" at all. No release of the hands and arms.

Check out this video though for a solid explanation about the proper release to hit a draw.

You do a pretty good job of getting your hips forward and keeping your upper center to stay centered, thus creating some nice spine tilt. Good job there! But anyway, here's a good video though on the proper release to a hit a draw... which is essentially, no release at all.

And while I'm at it, your arms are retracting on the through swing. Here's a video that can help a bit with that:

Some food for thought.

PS- Sorry, I own analyzr pro, but I don't have it on this computer so you'll just to deal with plain old fashioned paint brush for this one... sorry about that.

[threejack]

hey man thanks a lot for the help and effort you put into that. I will definitely work with these two things and see what happens.

[JetFan1983]

No problem. Happy to help.

From my perspective, changes are hard to make. So, struggling is sort of inevitable, I guess? More so, what I was talking about will hopefully help you better understand some "whys" to your ball flight and swing and stuff. For me, that was always the start towards getting better and hitting draws. You have more natural talent than me though, so hopefully you'll do okay out there on the range.

Try some half swings that will feel like glorified chip shots and see if you can get that ball to draw with the driver.

[threejack]

man just taking a few swings in my front room i can feel a big difference. much more control and consistency in grounding out. it felt a lot different, i was definitely letting that club fly open.

[JetFan1983]

Cool, man. Yea, it should feel different. Like I said, it's hard to make changes on your own, so I hope it goes ok out on the range for you.

I just want you to take note of one more thing here. I've taken a snap shot of two frame from the second video I provided (The Proper Release to Hit a Draw).

Notice how at 0:43 how steep the shaft angle becomes when Dave over-rotates his hands and forearms on the downswing. He's coming well over-the-top of that inclined plane line indicated by that yellow stick stuck in the ground.

Then, also notice how much flatter the shaft angle becomes when he does the opposite and feels much less or almost no release or turning of the forearms at 2:33. Now, the shaft angle matches the inclined plane.

[threejack]

I appreciate the visuals man. I am a visual guy so when I see something it really helps me.

I firmed up my forearms and wrists and focused on keeping them still and letting my shoulders take everything. When I take swings it feels a lot more controlled and consistent.

My backswing is a lot shorter, but it feels so much more controlled and actually pretty powerful from that shoulder torque. I have a carpet square that I swing on and I can actually see the path from my club and it is slightly in to out which is nice to see. When I pause at impact my club face is dead square too.

If I get to a range and hit the ball straight with my woods and driver, I will make somehow send you 5 bucks for a beer haha.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by threejack

it feels so much more controlled and actually pretty powerful from that shoulder torque. I have a carpet square that I swing on and I can actually see the path from my club and it is slightly in to out which is nice to see. When I pause at impact my club face is dead square too.

Just a couple of details to add here.

With the shoulder turn, you don't want them to flair too far open relative to your stance line because that brings the path out-to-in and across the ball. Feeling shoulders that are more closed is another draw piece because you can hit more out at the ball. That said, if you can keep getting your hips forward while keeping your head steady (like you did in your most recent practice swing uploads on your My Swing Thread) -- thus creating the necessary axis tilt to shallow your angle of approach into the ball -- I don't think your shoulders will be open. So maybe my comment here isn't necessary.

Also, if the path is coming from inside-out, you don't want a club face that is dead square to your target line at impact because the ball will start straight and then begin to draw away from the target. The face should be a couple degrees open relative to that target line so you can push it out the right to allow for the draw... Of course, if you end up hitting dead straight shots during your next range session then certainly don't change the club face angle from that square position.

Anyway, I think I may have gone a bit overboard with the information already. I don't want to overwhelm you with too many things to think about. But definitely let us know how it goes. Post the stuff you're struggling with and include a new swing clip or two on your My Swing thread in the near future when you get a chance.

And certainly test out the new swing you are currently feeling just to see what it does to the ball flight before trying these new suggestions. It's possible this post is information overkill at this point.

[poser]

Quote:

appreciate that, but don't go poppin' that beer can just yet. Changing one's swing path can be challenging, especially by yourself. I know it was for me. I was push-fading and pushing a lot of shots during my lessons for a while there before I started hitting draws. That said, let us know how it goes, the challenges you faced, etc. I'm certainly not trying to discourage you, but I want you to be aware of some challenges that you may likely face at your next range session.

Well said. Fixing a path issues especially being steep is very hard and takes alot of time and practice.  I had the same issue when I first started to play golf.  I would get really steep and hit big pull draws with my irons and low slices with my driver.   Good luck

[threejack]

so i went to the range the other day. i stood closer to the ball than usual so that I would be forced to keep my hands in and quiet. my drives were dead straight about 240-250 into a nasty nasty headwind. I've never been so confident hitting a ball until that day. so excited to get out for a round again and see how i do.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by threejack

so i went to the range the other day. i stood closer to the ball than usual so that I would be forced to keep my hands in and quiet. my drives were dead straight about 240-250 into a nasty nasty headwind. I've never been so confident hitting a ball until that day. so excited to get out for a round again and see how i do.

Awesome! Great to hear