Demo's several irons today. Need some help reading stats chart!!

[PhillyMac]

I am currently playing the TM 1.0's irons with the uniflex shafts. Good clubs but just do not seem to be too consistent for me. Anyhow I went to the local Golf Galaxy this afternoon to see what they had. The golf pro there was very helpful. I tried out the 7 irons in the follow models off the rack: G20, TM CB, R11, RAZR,and  AP1 712. So I hit 3 balls with each 7 iron.  I was impressed with both the G20 and AP1 712. Both felt very solid. I really didnt like the set up of the G20 at all it seemed to have alot of offset. So anyway here is where I need some advise from you guys. The golf pro printed me the numbers from all the irons. I wanted to show you guys with the ones I like most.

G20:              ball 1     ball 2     ball 3

Club speed:   93.58,    89.81,    98.88   avg: 94.09

ball velocity:  117.6,    122.2,    118.6   avg: 119.5

ball spin:       5603,     5887,     5353   avg: 5614

carry:           164.2,    172.8,    166.7   avg 167.9

Total Dist:     173.3,    182.3,    175.9   avg 177.1

Deviation:      11.9R,   13.9L,     9.2R.  avg: 11.7       I believe this means yards L or R off center.

AP1 712:         ball 1     ball 2    ball3

Club speed:     84.49,    85.80,   85.80   avg: 85.36

ball velocity:    121.6,    117.4,   112.8   avg: 117.3

ball spin:         7398,     6906,    646     avg: 6983

carry:              164.5,   165.5,    157.0   avg 162.3

Total Dist:       171.9,   172.9,    164.0   avg 169.6

Deviation:        20.3L,     7.7L,    7.5L     avg: 11.8

After going over the numbers with the golf pro, he really pushed the G20's saying that I hit them longer than any other iron. He was saying that the lower ball spin of the G20's was the difference. But after I looked at the numbers, my club speed for the G20's was an avg of 94.09 where as the AP1's were an average of 85.36. I think that if I had the same or close club speed with the AP1's, I would have gotten similar results. Also seemed that the G20s were not as consistent where I was hitting them left and right. But the AP1's were consistently left of targer. Now I did have a few mishit and all the clubs except the G20's were taped up on the club face (not sure if that really makes a difference or not). I know some of you guys knows what all these stats mean, maybe you could explain it a little more and help with with a decision. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

[bpollino89]

What is interesting to me is while you are getting more clubhead speed with the G20 and also more distance, what I would take a look at is how close your carry distance is with both brands, you are getting very close to the same carry with both clubs but you are generating more spin with the AP1, thus less total distance, keeping in mind that your irons are for hitting greens, I would want more spin. Imagine those as shots to the green with pretty close to the same carry average I would want the ones that stop better. Also, I see that you are using the Vokey wedge, I like to keep consistency with irons and wedges. Just my 2 cents though.

[newtogolf]

The G20's 7i has a 32* loft and a swing weight of D0 where as the AP1 has a 33* loft and a swing weight of D2.  The G20 is lighter and stronger lofted which could partially explain the higher club head speeds and carry distance along with the ball spin numbers.  The other variable is the shaft, did they both have the same shafts?  If not the shafts could also have an impact on the numbers.

IMO if you're going to compare two clubs head to head you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

[PhillyMac]

Originally Posted by bpollino89

What is interesting to me is while you are getting more clubhead speed with the G20 and also more distance, what I would take a look at is how close your carry distance is with both brands, you are getting very close to the same carry with both clubs but you are generating more spin with the AP1, thus less total distance, keeping in mind that your irons are for hitting greens, I would want more spin. Imagine those as shots to the green with pretty close to the same carry average I would want the ones that stop better. Also, I see that you are using the Vokey wedge, I like to keep consistency with irons and wedges. Just my 2 cents though.

I was thinking the same thing. It seemd that the pro was trying to push the Pings alot more. I even told him several times that the AP1's felt better than the G20's and that the set up looked better as well. but he kept saying "The numbers don't lie with the Pings".

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The G20's 7i has a 32* loft and a swing weight of D0 where as the AP1 has a 33* loft and a swing weight of D2.  The G20 is lighter and stronger lofted which could partially explain the higher club head speeds and carry distance along with the ball spin numbers.  The other variable is the shaft, did they both have the same shafts?  If not the shafts could also have an impact on the numbers.

IMO if you're going to compare two clubs head to head you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

No they didn't have the same shaft. The G20 had a stiff shaft and the AP1 I think was a regular shaft (not 100% sure though). I am definately fitted: correct shaft, loft and lie. It's not like I couldn't get the lofts on some of the AP1's turned up a degree or so, right? Is club speed and swing speed the same? Because I have had my swing speed check twice and both times it was around 97-101 mph.

[newtogolf]

The lofts are factory specifications - so out of the factory the G20 has a strong loft than the AP1 which will result in more distance.   Swing weight is also from the factory, so the Pings at D0 are lighter and likely to have a higher swing speed than a heavier club.

If the AP1 has a regular shaft and the Ping was stiff that could be the reason for the variance in ball spin.  If you're club head speed is hitting almost 99 with your 7i you're going to want at least a stiff shaft.  I'd verify the shafts are the same stiffness (ideally identical shafts in both clubs) and let him measure you again.  Based on what you shared it seems he's either biased towards selling you Pings or doesn't know what he's doing.

Originally Posted by PhillyMac

No they didn't have the same shaft. The G20 had a stiff shaft and the AP1 I think was a regular shaft (not 100% sure though). I am definately fitted: correct shaft, loft and lie. It's not like I couldn't get the lofts on some of the AP1's turned up a degree or so, right? Is club speed and swing speed the same? Because I have had my swing speed check twice and both times it was around 97-101 mph.

[x129]

The club speed was higher but you were making poorer contact with the ball (i.e. notice how the ball speed is higher with the slower swings). That could be a result of the club (i.e. different length, lies,...) or just chance as 3 shots isn't a big sample size. I would go back and hit the balls again now that you are down to 2 clubs or see if they have demos you can borrow.  I would also definitely make sure I try an AP1 with a stiff (or even extra stiff if you are can consistantly swing 95mph with a 7 iron) before making a decision.  Finally there is a lot more than picking the longest club (that would be the manufactor with the longest irons and most jacked up lofts). Being comfortable at address is worth a lot more than 5 yards and unless you are testing with the same balls you play with, your results will differ as each ball has different spin and compression characteristics.  Numbers might not lie, but it is real is to misinterpert them and draw false conclusions

Originally Posted by PhillyMac

I am currently playing the TM 1.0's irons with the uniflex shafts. Good clubs but just do not seem to be too consistent for me. Anyhow I went to the local Golf Galaxy this afternoon to see what they had. The golf pro there was very helpful. I tried out the 7 irons in the follow models off the rack: G20, TM CB, R11, RAZR,and  AP1 712. So I hit 3 balls with each 7 iron.  I was impressed with both the G20 and AP1 712. Both felt very solid. I really didnt like the set up of the G20 at all it seemed to have alot of offset. So anyway here is where I need some advise from you guys. The golf pro printed me the numbers from all the irons. I wanted to show you guys with the ones I like most.

G20:              ball 1     ball 2     ball 3

Club speed:   93.58,    89.81,    98.88   avg: 94.09

ball velocity:  117.6,    122.2,    118.6   avg: 119.5

ball spin:       5603,     5887,     5353   avg: 5614

carry:           164.2,    172.8,    166.7   avg 167.9

Total Dist:     173.3,    182.3,    175.9   avg 177.1

Deviation:      11.9R,   13.9L,     9.2R.  avg: 11.7       I believe this means yards L or R off center.

AP1 712:         ball 1     ball 2    ball3

Club speed:     84.49,    85.80,   85.80   avg: 85.36

ball velocity:    121.6,    117.4,   112.8   avg: 117.3

ball spin:         7398,     6906,    646     avg: 6983

carry:              164.5,   165.5,    157.0   avg 162.3

Total Dist:       171.9,   172.9,    164.0   avg 169.6

Deviation:        20.3L,     7.7L,    7.5L     avg: 11.8

After going over the numbers with the golf pro, he really pushed the G20's saying that I hit them longer than any other iron. He was saying that the lower ball spin of the G20's was the difference. But after I looked at the numbers, my club speed for the G20's was an avg of 94.09 where as the AP1's were an average of 85.36. I think that if I had the same or close club speed with the AP1's, I would have gotten similar results. Also seemed that the G20s were not as consistent where I was hitting them left and right. But the AP1's were consistently left of targer. Now I did have a few mishit and all the clubs except the G20's were taped up on the club face (not sure if that really makes a difference or not). I know some of you guys knows what all these stats mean, maybe you could explain it a little more and help with with a decision. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

[PhillyMac]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The lofts are factory specifications - so out of the factory the G20 has a strong loft than the AP1 which will result in more distance.   Swing weight is also from the factory, so the Pings at D0 are lighter and likely to have a higher swing speed than a heavier club.

If the AP1 has a regular shaft and the Ping was stiff that could be the reason for the variance in ball spin.  If you're club head speed is hitting almost 99 with your 7i you're going to want at least a stiff shaft.  I'd verify the shafts are the same stiffness (ideally identical shafts in both clubs) and let him measure you again.  Based on what you shared it seems he's either biased towards selling you Pings or doesn't know what he's doing.

I had my swing checked when I bought my TM 1.0's back last June and it was 97-101mph. The pro @ Dick's SG, said I could go either way as far as shafts, but said the unishaft on my TM's would be good. For granted, I might have not been swinging my best today, I wasn't dressed in my comfortable golf attire either..LOL. Now the pro today had the Ping cart (where u can change out club heads) and he would switch the heads out with a wrench. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't biased towards the Pings, but it sure seemed liked it. I am not knocking the Pings whatsoever because they were a solid club. But I felt like I was being steered away from the any other club, due to my results on the swing meter.

I just don't want to make a mistake on buying the wrong club. When I bought the TM 1.0's from Dicks SG, I was told that the "stock off the rack" was perfect for me. I feel that's not the case now. I am pulling my 4-7 irons left (anywhere from 10-30 yds depending on club). When I was fitting many years ago for my Cleveland TA3's, I had to have the lie turned down 2*. Maybe that's the reason with my longer irons? I don't really know any more, I just got back into the game last April after about 5 yrs away. I think what I need to do is go back and re-try all the clubs again and then go from there.

[PhillyMac]

Originally Posted by x129

The club speed was higher but you were making poorer contact with the ball (i.e. notice how the ball speed is higher with the slower swings). That could be a result of the club (i.e. different length, lies,...) or just chance as 3 shots isn't a big sample size. I would go back and hit the balls again now that you are down to 2 clubs or see if they have demos you can borrow.  I would also definitely make sure I try an AP1 with a stiff (or even extra stiff if you are can consistantly swing 95mph with a 7 iron) before making a decision.  Finally there is a lot more than picking the longest club (that would be the manufactor with the longest irons and most jacked up lofts). Being comfortable at address is worth a lot more than 5 yards and unless you are testing with the same balls you play with, your results will differ as each ball has different spin and compression characteristics.  Numbers might not lie, but it is real is to misinterpert them and draw false conclusions

I totally agree, maybe I should have taken more shots. 3 shots is not enough to make a huge judgement call on a new set of irons. As far as AP1 vs Ping and which shaft to use, I will go on feel of the club first then figure which shaft, then if I want to turn them up or down as far as lie then I can (hopefully). Is there any other iron recommendations you guys would recommend? I've thought about the Mizzy JPX800 or JPX 800Pro's as well. I will probably give the TM R11's, the TM CB's and possible the TM RBZ's another try as well. Just to make sure on my decision. But like I stated earlier, the G20s felt great but the set-up when addressing the ball seemed odd. The AP1's were like butter when hit solid. Might have not have been as far, distance wise as the G20's. But I can turn em up a degree or 2 and make em work.

[Jmdmbike]

[LIST] [*] [*] [*] [/LIST] You definitely need to hit more than 3 shots and make sure you're comparing shafts that are comparable. I just did a fitting with a Titleist rep after deciding I wanted consistency over pure distance in my irons. I was also using the TM 1.0 before, and they are good clubs for sure, but the AP1's felt totally different - more balanced through the swing as the shaft is not nearly as light. Also tried the G15 (similar to G20) but they just didn't look right to me or feel as good as the AP1's. I also hit the TM 2.0 and they were very similar tom the 1.0's IMO. It comes down to what you want to achieve most with your irons - distance, consistency, accuracy, etc - and focus on the irons that align with your goals. And a proper fitting will ensure younger the most out of your clubs.

[x129]

If the club fitter was really suggesting uniflex for a 100mph 7 iron swing, I think I would try someone else. That is a really fast swing speed for an 7 iron and the pros who swing about that fast or slower all tend to be in stiff/xstiff.

Pretty much any major club maker puts out a decent iron. As they all use different combos of lies, lengths, and loft it is almost impossible to compare them. If you need a 61 degree lie and the club defaults to a 62.5, you will probably hit the stock club worse than a manufacturer that defaults to 61. But if the clubs were both fitted properly you would be fine with either. Juicing lofts by a degree or two will help you get another 5 yards but is it really worth making the club harder to hit versus just up clubbing?

It really sounds like you like the AP1s. I know nothing about golf galaxy fittings but I would search around and see if you can find a person with the Titlest fitting cart (or a demo day) and try a couple of different shafts.

Originally Posted by PhillyMac

I totally agree, maybe I should have taken more shots. 3 shots is not enough to make a huge judgement call on a new set of irons. As far as AP1 vs Ping and which shaft to use, I will go on feel of the club first then figure which shaft, then if I want to turn them up or down as far as lie then I can (hopefully). Is there any other iron recommendations you guys would recommend? I've thought about the Mizzy JPX800 or JPX 800Pro's as well. I will probably give the TM R11's, the TM CB's and possible the TM RBZ's another try as well. Just to make sure on my decision. But like I stated earlier, the G20s felt great but the set-up when addressing the ball seemed odd. The AP1's were like butter when hit solid. Might have not have been as far, distance wise as the G20's. But I can turn em up a degree or 2 and make em work.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

The club speed was higher but you were making poorer contact with the ball (i.e. notice how the ball speed is higher with the slower swings). That could be a result of the club (i.e. different length, lies,...) or just chance as 3 shots isn't a big sample size. I would go back and hit the balls again now that you are down to 2 clubs or see if they have demos you can borrow. ...

Three shots per club isn't a whole lot of data to work with. Too much chance variance at play.

If you like the G20 and AP1, you might go back and get an iron fitting for them. This would involve some warm-up time, and then 8-10 shots per club with average data on launch monitor.

If you have a practice range nearby, you might want to hit a small bucket with your TM 1.0s before you go to GG. (Assuming you're not snowed in)

Also, if we knew your HDCP range and your playing experience, this would be helpful. How long have you had the TM 1.0 irons? (For comparison's sake, Uniflex comes in at between R and S flex). Have you ever had a lesson just on you TM 1.0 irons? What do you mean by inconsistent?

[saevel25]

Its tough to tell these days, a 7 iron isn't a 7 iron all around.

really, you got to try to match as close as possible. But i would care less about distance, but care more about how they feel, and how consistantly you can put the club on the ball. After that its just figuring out your gaps and your yardages, and you can play golf.

Also note, these computer generated numbers, in the field is a bit different. The G20 might hit them way higher, and you might have ballooning issues. Also, you got to consider its only 5 yards, but over the 100 times you hit that club during the year, you might be plus or minus 5 yards from your average. I wouldn't consider 3 samples very accurate.

[PhillyMac]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Quote:

Three shots per club isn't a whole lot of data to work with. Too much chance variance at play.

If you like the G20 and AP1, you might go back and get an iron fitting for them. This would involve some warm-up time, and then 8-10 shots per club with average data on launch monitor.

If you have a practice range nearby, you might want to hit a small bucket with your TM 1.0s before you go to GG. (Assuming you're not snowed in)

Also, if we knew your HDCP range and your playing experience, this would be helpful. How long have you had the TM 1.0 irons? (For comparison's sake, Uniflex comes in at between R and S flex). Have you ever had a lesson just on you TM 1.0 irons? What do you mean by inconsistent?

I did warm up prior to hitting the 3 shots each. But my warm up was with the G20, and once the pro had the machine ready, I then took my 3 shots with the G20. I was somewhat already used to the G20. But once I was done with the G20, I then hit 3 shots with the TM CB, then 3 with the RAZR and so forth. I should have hit several shots with all clubs like I did with the G20. I believe the results would have been a little more consistent.

WU, I just started playing again last April after several years away from the game. Before my departure from the game I had been playing for about 10-12 years, I averaged low 80's. This year I was averaging high 80's to low 90's. Right now I am struggling with hitting shots consistently during the round. When I hit a nice solid shot, it tends to go left of target. The longer the iron the further left it will travel. WU, I think I know what you are hinting at, and I agree! I should get some lessons and get my swing more consistent, then go from there. Possibly get a fitting with my 1.0's.

[PhillyMac]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Its tough to tell these days, a 7 iron isn't a 7 iron all around.

really, you got to try to match as close as possible. But i would care less about distance, but care more about how they feel, and how consistantly you can put the club on the ball. After that its just figuring out your gaps and your yardages, and you can play golf.

Also note, these computer generated numbers, in the field is a bit different. The G20 might hit them way higher, and you might have ballooning issues. Also, you got to consider its only 5 yards, but over the 100 times you hit that club during the year, you might be plus or minus 5 yards from your average. I wouldn't consider 3 samples very accurate.

I couldn't agree more! I have always hated hitting into a simulator or hitting net. I want to see the ball in the air so I can get an idea of what kind of shot I am hitting. If I decide to get new irons, I will definately take them out to the driving range and get a real feel to what they will do.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

...  When I hit a nice solid shot, it tends to go left of target. The longer the iron the further left it will travel. WU, I think I know what you are hinting at, and I agree! I should get some lessons and get my swing more consistent, then go from there. Possibly get a fitting with my 1.0's.

With lesson you might get a basic "static" fitting: make sure the shaft length and lie angle are right for you. Solid shots going left might indicate a too-upright lie angle. A clubfitter could check this by having you hit a few shots with impact tape on the sole of  a couple of your irons. Or, left might mean the shafts are too soft. Lesson + fitting can help you diagnose problem.

P.S. Welcome back to golf! Hope you can get a good deal on lessons during cold weather.

[mymizunosrock]

Sounds a bit to me like you wasted your time with this guy. Just throwing clubs in your hands and saying "try this, now try this" is not how a fitting should go. If they had the fitting carts there, there is no excuse not to give you the right shaft once they figure out what it is. No 2 different clubs will require the same shaft either. They may be close, but variations in COG, weight and loft will require different kick points to get the best spin an launch. If they dont have demo clubs or a fitting cart, meaning they dont have to tape clubs up off the shelf, then go somewhere that does.

[PhillyMac]

Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

Sounds a bit to me like you wasted your time with this guy. Just throwing clubs in your hands and saying "try this, now try this" is not how a fitting should go. If they had the fitting carts there, there is no excuse not to give you the right shaft once they figure out what it is. No 2 different clubs will require the same shaft either. They may be close, but variations in COG, weight and loft will require different kick points to get the best spin an launch. If they dont have demo clubs or a fitting cart, meaning they dont have to tape clubs up off the shelf, then go somewhere that does.

Yep, I agree. I should have known better! I was caught up with hitting all the latest and greatest clubs out there and was going on what the golf pro was telling me to do. I did mention something to him about the taped up clubs but he really never said anything. Lesson learned!

[PhillyMac]

Update!

After the bad advice, I got from Golf Galaxy I decided to go to our local Edwin Watts. I wanted to give it another go with a few other irons. So after some discussion with the pro there, I wanted to try the JPXPro's and hit the AP1's again for peace of mind since I perviously like them the first time I hit them at Golf Galaxy. The pro recommended since I didn't like the G20's to give the i20's a try. After hitting many shots with each of them, I hit the AP1's more consistent, where as the i20's were a close second and the JPXPro's were just not consistent for me at all. So in the end it came down to AP1's and i20's. I really could not decide on which I like better, but in the end, I ended up going with the 712 AP1s, I really liked the weight and feel a little more than the i20's. Let me say this, I have never really cared for Ping irons in the past, they just seemed to bulky and just didn't look good at set-up for me. But these i20's are the real deal!

The service at Edwin Watts was great. I had mentioned earlier in our discussion that I don't even carry a 4 iron and I carry a 4 hybrid in place of it. So he asked me what wedges I carry and I told him carried a 52* and 56*, and he recommended since I wouldn't hit the 4 iron and GW that he would pull the 4 iron and GW from the set and drop the price to $646 tax and all. I jumped on the offer! Now if the weather would warm up I would be out hitting them right now!

Here is a pic of my bag now!